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Preterism - True Or false?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by robycop3, Jul 31, 2017.

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  1. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Why demean the koine Greek language? The language by which God chose to write the NT and then cast aspersions on those who spend a lifetime in its study and translation - taking the gospel to distant lands?

    If He came "shortly" as in a humanly speaking short period of time according to the preterist view then what of the following passage and the Greek words therein?

    2 Peter 3
    10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
    11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
    12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

    When did this happen? It happened but no one noticed?

    Or:

    Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    It seems preterism has a lot more semantic explaining to do than futurism.

    Our views have to do with word definitions that we identify as either literal or metaphorica or even a mix.

    No matter how we align the list under which heading will cause issues further on in the scripture.

    So the debate goes on.

    HankD
     
    #61 HankD, Aug 5, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2017
  2. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    John is right. You are wrong.

    Another Greek "expert" using Strong's, the very worst concordance/lexicon ever published.

    If you are ignorant of Greek at least use an Analytical Concordance such as Young's.

    Strong's is notorious for its many errors, especially the oft recurring root fallacy which is in evidence in this thread.

    For instance, ταχεως is not TACHEO or even tachos. They are not even the same part of speech. ταχεως as used in 2 Timothy 4:9 is an adverb. When used with ἐν the meaning changes.
     
  3. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    There's only ONE proof that would make preterism true - and that's the past occurrence of those prophesied events. However, the eschatological events are completely absent from history because of the simple FACT that they HAVEN'T YET HAPPENED!

    SOME of Jesus' prophecies in the Olivet Discourse have come to pass, but NOT the ones preterists include in their doctrine & pronouncements. For example, Jerusalem & the temple were destroyed in 70 AD precisely as written. There's not one stone of the actual temple left upon another, just as written. And there's war & rumor of war going on right now, and has been going on for some time, as prophesied. Christians are being persecuted, with decapitations, as per ISIS & other evil groups. And Jerusalem is being trod underfoot by gentiles right now, as per the parade of Muslims to & from their shrines there, as well as by non-Jewish Christians to & from the Christian shrines there, as well as the non-Jewish inhabitants who control several parts of the city.

    But there's been NO great antichrist world ruler, NO abomination of desolation, NO great trib, NO mark of the beast, and certainly NO glorious return of Jesus in great power & glory, SEEN BY ALL, even those who pierced Him. There's nothing in the preterist imagination that'll fill in those gaps between prophecy and history! They simply HAVEN'T YET HAPPENED!
     
  4. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    The "fulness of the gentiles" is not over. There are many more gentiles than Israelis being saved every day.
     
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  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    That system all stands/falls depending on IF the second coming has already happened, and the resurrection of all of the dead in Christ!
     
  6. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Persecutions & false prophets are in action RIGHT NOW.

    And the gospel is JUST NOW being brought to the more-remote populations of the world.
    I don't think there's much argument about when the New Covenant began, nor about the fact that we're under it now, with the main dissent being from Orthodox Jews.

    No, he DIDN'T. He said Jerusalem's DESOLATION was near. that's different from the AOD. The AOD is identified in Daniel 9. It's when the antichrist & his deputy the false prophet enter the temple, setting up the AC's statue, which the FP will supernatuallly cause to speak, and the AC declares himself to be God.

    Josephus used his imagination some, being careful to not write anything that might offend the Flavius family who'd adopted him. He played the child's game of saying clouds were whatever he imagined them to be, such as seeing Jesus in the clouds. Funny, no one but Josephus recorded that if it'd REALLY happened!


    Oh, REALLY?

    Then, when did it rain rocks? When did all life in the seas die? When was all green grass burnt up, etc. etc. etc?

    There's no lack of false christs now, such as Maiatreya, the late Jim Jones, & the slew of false preachers active right now.

    Equating Roman standards to eagles is absolutely goofy.

    No, it has NOT!

    The prophecies MUST be fulfilled EXACTLY AS WRITTEN, in their original language. Very obviously, they have NOT been yet so fulfilled!

    Sir, you've been deceived by the garbage of charlatans such as Alcazar, Gentry, Preston, Sproul, etc. All their pro-pret stuff is horse feathers. Preterism is just another false doctrine of Satan's, designed to take away the Christian's hope of Jesus' return to take His saints to be with Him eternally. there's not a quark of TRUTH in preterism!

    ""PRETERISM - PHONY AS A FORD CORVETTE!""
     
  7. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    And the "days of vengeance" were accomplished 66-70 AD. But a much-greater punishment of the Jews for their rejection of Jesus and their continuing in false worship began 135-136 AD when Hadrian booted them entirely outta the Roman empire & gave their land to the Philistines.
     
  8. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    OF COURSE I do. The eschatological events have simply NOT YET HAPPENED. Prets come up empty in the PROOF Dept. every time.
     
  9. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Do you know what "the powers of the heavens" are? They're the apparent courses thru the sky that the permanent celestial bodies appear to follow. They've not been changed since the time of Hezekiah, 700s BC, when the sun temporarily reversed its course at Hezekiah's request to Isaiah. ('Twas during this time the year's length became its present length from 360 days.) And the medes didn't destroy babylon - they conquered it. Babylon still existed in Jesus' time.

    Pure speculation. We don't know what His sign will be, but it'll be unmistakable & be seen by all, as Jesus Himself will be when He appears. And if Jesus woulda meant only the Israelis, He woulda said such! No, ALL the tribes of the earth will mourn, just as Jesus prophesied!

    It is apparent from verses 35-44 that this 'coming' that in context would occur at the time of the destruction is NOT his final coming for resurrection & judgment. Note that Jesus was glorified by his miracles, & would also be glorified by the fulfilment of his prophecies.

    Not kosher to read new meanings into God's word!
     
  10. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Sir, you simply don't have a leg to stand on, preterism-wise. The prophesied eschatological events have simply NOT YET OCCURRED! There's nothing you can invent that can substitute for them! The pret pronouncements are simply hot air!

    PRETERIST CREDIBILITY IS ZERO!
     
  11. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Sir, I trust Dr. Cassidy's interps of Koine Greek above any which you may invent, including many in Strong's.

    Again & again, I shall hold preterists to the standard of **PROVING** their assertions! I have Encyclopaedia Britannica & other reference books right in front of me, and the occurrences of any of the prophesied eschatological events is absent from all of them! Preterism is simply without foundation and without proof. And most historians believe that the Revelation was given to John during the reign of Domitian, which ended in 96 AD. (Nero had died in 68 AD.)

    With no disrespect meant to you, Sir, you simply CANNOT PROVE ONE POINT of preterism! It's a FALSE DOCTRINE & there's no getting by that!
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    IF the second coming has already happened, they would be right, if not....
     
  13. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Though scripture is our final authority church history documentation does have some value.
    A few years ago Tom Asterisk and I looked at Early Church Fathers (ECF) writings. Tom was challenged to find an ECF (post AD70) who was full preterist. Tom made a claim for one author because he spoke of the sack of Jerusalem as the days of vengeance. On the other hand I found ECF who wrote before AD70, around AD70, eclipsing AD70 and after AD70 (some well after) who spoke in no uncertain terms of a FUTURE Second Coming.

    There is NO historical evidence for a clear cut preterist view among the ECF.
    ALL were futurists.

    HankD
     
  14. Genevanpreacher

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    *chuckle*

    Oh! You were serious? :)
     
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  15. Genevanpreacher

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    Abomination of Desolation -

    [​IMG]

    Already occurred.

    [​IMG]

    "Following the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in the year 70, the area of the Temple was deliberately left in ruins (desolated)* (first by the Romans, then by the Byzantines). This desecration was not redressed until the Muslim conquest of the city by the Caliph Omar ibn al-Khattab in 638. He ordered the clearing of the site and the building of a house of prayer.

    Some 50 years later, the Umayyad Caliph Abd al-Malik built the Dome of the Rock to enshrine the outcrop of bedrock believed to be the place of the sacrifice on Mount Moriah. He (or his son, the Caliph al-Walid I) also built in 1033 the large mosque at the southern end of the Haram, which came to be called al-Aqsa after the Koranic name attributed to the entire area."

    The Temple Mount

    (*my Biblical word)
     
    #75 Genevanpreacher, Aug 5, 2017
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  16. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    No, orthodox Preterism has a very good grasp of things, maybe it's YOU that's cut yourself off from the marvelous fulfillments that are there for those with eyes to see and ears to hear.
     
    #76 kyredneck, Aug 5, 2017
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  17. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    The days of vengeance were specifically prophesied by Jesus, & as you agree, were accomplished.

    NONE of the Jews of the generation who rejected Jesus were alive in 135 AD so why should God punish them for their rejection of Jesus? Perhaps Hadrian had his own reasons.

    Christians also suffered persecution from the Romans. What was that a punishment for?
     
  18. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Which will continue until the Times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

    HankD
     
  19. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Yea already occurred, but LONG before the Dome of the Rock. Again, it's such a simple hermeneutic to compare scripture with scripture and let it interpret itself:

    15 When therefore ye see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand),
    16 then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains: Mt 24

    14 But when ye see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not (let him that readeth understand), then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains: Mk 13

    20 But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand.
    21 Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter therein. Lk 21

    When You See Jerusalem Surrounded.....
     
    #79 kyredneck, Aug 5, 2017
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  20. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    As a people/nation then and today in their synagogues reject their predicted Messiah until the vail is removed from their eyes.

    Not punishment but a glory to God of martyrdom for the name of Jesus
     
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