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Featured PREVENIENT GRACE: AN ARMINIAN ERROR

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Barry Johnson, Nov 14, 2020.

  1. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Strange bedfellows , Arminianism and Calvinism.
    “Total Inability” is the belief that all humanity is born incapable of willingly coming to Christ for salvation even in light of the Holy Spirit wrought truth of the Gospel, unless God graciously works to empower the will of lost man (effectually by way of regeneration for the Calvinist, and sufficiently by way of “prevenient grace” for the Arminian).

    “Prevenient grace” is simply a term for the grace of God that goes before, prepares the way, enables, assists the sinner’s repentance and faith (conversion). According to classical Calvinism this prevenient grace is always efficacious and given only to the elect through the gospel; it effects conversion. According to classical Arminianism it is an operation of the Holy Spirit that frees the sinner’s will from bondage to sin and convicts, calls, illumines and enables the sinner to respond to the gospel call with repentance and faith (conversion). Calvinists and Arminians agree, against Pelagianism and semi-Pelagianism, that the sinner’s will is so depraved and bound to sin that it cannot respond positively to the gospel call without supernatural grace
    Roger Olson.

    .
    However the scriptures say different .
    Dr. Olson makes the same fundamental error of our Calvinistic brethren by assuming one’s bondage to sin equals a moral incapacity to humble himself and confess this bondage in light of the truth plainly made known by the gospel. As far as I can tell, this is never taught in scripture but is merely theological baggage presumed upon the text.

    In contrast to Olson, I would contend that it is by the means of the Holy Spirit inspired gospel that God directly works within man’s hearts prior to their acceptance and/or rejection of the appeal made by that gospel. In fact, I believe that is what the scripture is contending when it says:

    Heb 4
    12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
    2 tim 3
    15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

    16¶All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    Rom 10.17
    So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
    John 6
    63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

    Is another work of divine grace, besides that which the gospel accomplishes, needed to enable the lost to respond?

    “…these [scriptures] have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.”

    Must we muddy the waters by suggesting that God, at some unknown point in the life of everyone, has to move in some other gracious way to enable all people to respond to the already gracious, powerful, Holy Spirit wrought truth of the gospel? What text necessitates such complex theological explanations? Why create a redundant theological term when the biblical word is more than sufficient? The GOSPEL is God’s enabling grace and the ONLY reason some do not have “ears to hear” is if they have become blinded or calloused against it because they have continually closed their eyes to the truth (John 12:39-41; Acts 28:23-28). There is nothing in scripture, as far as I can tell, which suggests men are born in such condition that would prevent them from responding to “the double edge sword” of the Holy Spirit’s soul piercing gospel truth (Heb. 4:12).

    What say you ?

    ( Excerpt s taken from Soteriology 101 )
     
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  2. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Ah, now I see where you're coming from. "Traditional" Southern Baptist soteriology, which denies a specific work of grace in salvation. This is not at all "traditional" soteriology but a way to sidestep the awkward truth of total inability.
     
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  3. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    I personally don't align myself with any particular ism . I've just used as an example as I agree with the points made. I would deny a specific work of grace as stated is necessary. I believe its coming from the same faulty understanding of the T in TULIP .
     
  4. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    It is funny how you muddy the waters with verses taken out of context to create a false prooftext.

    It reminds me of those who teach prevenient grace from John 6:44.
    No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

    RC Sproul has a good teaching series on being chosen by God in which he speaks to this verse.

    The Greek word, translated as "draw" in this verse is translated "drag" in every other passage of the Bible. It turns out there is an instance in a Greek play where the play write uses the word for drawing water from a well, so many English translators have used "draw" in this instance.

    RC makes the humorous note that he has never seen water jump into the bucket on its own accord. Even in this verse, the idea is that God does the work and drags (draws) the person up out of the well, like he would draw water up from a well. The water didn't come to the person, the water was pulled up from the well by the person drawing water from the well.
    RC did a marvelous job, in my opinion, in explaining the verse.

    "Man's Radical Fallenness" from Ligonier Ministries Man's Radical Fallenness by R.C. Sproul
     
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  5. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    The story didn't end with John 6.44 ...keep reading something major happens which supercedes John 6.44 . people recognise that John 6.44 comes after verses before Jesus was born ( After all the Father was not drawing people to the Son prior to his birth ) But don't recognise what changes after Jesus death burial and resurrection. Jesus even announces the change in John 12 .32
    32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me .

    33This he said, signifying what death he should die.

    Jesus even announces another change in
    John 16.8

    8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

    9Of sin, because they believe not on me;

    John 7
    38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

    39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

    But a Calvinist likes to stay at John 6.44 as if that's the Gospel. The Gospel hasn't even happened yet at John 6.44 . Its Still the old testament. No cross yet , no giving of the Holy Spirit , no Acts 2 , no apostle to the gentiles ect . " Ah but it says drag in the Greek , and R C sproul said this about John 6.44 blah blah blah " . KEEP READING ,THE BIBLE DOES NOT STOP AT JOHN 6.44 .
     
    #5 Barry Johnson, Nov 15, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2020
  6. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Are all men, universally, dragged to Jesus, Barry?

    John 6:45-47,63-65
    It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

    It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”


    John 10:14-18,25-30
    I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.” Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

    Barry there are multiple passages that have been shared with you and you blow them off. You are responsible for ignoring them.
     
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  7. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Because you don't understand the timeline and context . Would you say the cross comes after John 6 and John 10 ? let's work slowly here .
     
  8. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    : you say :////Are all men, universally, dragged to Jesus, Barry?/// this isn't my dilemma lol . Your stuck with ALL in John 12.32 .
    32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. ( Attract )

    33This he said, signifying what death he should die.
     
  9. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Barry, with everyone who has shown you the whole timeline and context, it's a sure bet that it is you who has no understanding of the timeline and context. At this point you are coming up with excuses for your denial of God's Sovereign authority.
     
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  10. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    I'm not stuck. You have to explain why all are not drawn or saved since it is you who is making the "all" universal.
    Barry, it is very clear that all are not dragged to Jesus. In fact they are predestined to perdition. (See Judas) Since all I needed is one person, Judas, my assertion is made. Now, prove that all people are saved.
     
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  11. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry, Barry,
    But I have to disagree yet again.

    None of what you see as "Calvinism", at least as far as TULIP goes, is purely assumed.
    It's read directly out of the Scriptures and understood from them.
    With respect to "Total Depravity", or man's innate and natural unwillingness to come to God because of our love for sin and hatred of Him and his Son, this is easily proven by His words.

    Please see:

    Romans 1:18-32.
    Romans 3:10-18.
    John 3:19-20.
    Psalms 10.
    Psalms 14.
    Psalms 53.

    In fact, read all of the Psalms,
    as the proof for mankind being stuck in our sins and loving it, is scattered among them.
    Ecclesiastes is another good reference, as is Ephesians 4:17-19 and the Gospels where the Lord is telling the Pharisees that eating with dirty hands ( Matthew 15, Mark 7 ) is not what defiles men and to clean the inside of the cup, not the outside ( Matthew 23:25-28, Luke 11:39 ).
    He once posted here, some years ago.
     
    #11 Dave G, Nov 16, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2020
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  12. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    But then we see Acts of the Apostles 2:39, Acts of the apostles 2:47, Acts of the Apostles 13:48, Acts of the Apostles 16:14, Romans 8:28-39, Romans 9, Romans 10, Romans 11, Ephesians 1, Ephesians 2, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, 1 Peter 1:2, Titus 1:1 and many others re-iterating what the Lord Jesus had already taught...

    That one must be chosen to salvation, i.e given to the Lord Jesus by God the Father, in order to believe on Him.
    It didn't just simply stop in John 6, Barry.
    Jesus Christ gave the same doctrines to Peter, Paul and all the apostles to preach and teach.
    I'm not sure why you don't see it, but it's there.

    In addition:

    The Gospel is, according to Scripture, everlasting ( Revelation 14:16 ).
    It was spoken to Abraham ( Galatians 3:8 ).
    Moses wrote of Christ ( John 5:46 ).
    As did David and Isaiah and others.

    Keep reading, Barry.

    The Gospel didn't start at the cross.
    It was only carried out at the cross.

    It spans the entire length and breadth of His word.:)
     
    #12 Dave G, Nov 16, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2020
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  13. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    From my perspective,
    The text doesn't say "all men" Barry.
    It says "all".

    " Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
    32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.
    33 This he said, signifying what death he should die."
    ( John 12:31-33 ).

    In the AV, the word "men" is in italics, signifying that the translators added it "for continuity"...
    Not because it was part of the Greek text, but because ( I think ) they thought it should read that way, but stopped short of actually adding the word "men" into the text as part of it.
    Unlike other translations which don't make that distinction ( like the YLT, NIV, NASB, ESV ), at least the KJV and NKJV do, by adding italics.

    In the Greek, the actual text says ( transliterated back into the English ), the following:
    " And-I if-ever I-may-be-being-heightened / exalted out-of-the-land all I-shall be-drawing toward myself ".

    Source: https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/joh12.pdf


    In other words, I think that the punctuation should be here,
    with no itaclicized words:

    " Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
    32 And I, if I be lifted up, from the earth will draw all [] unto me.
    33 This he said, signifying what death he should die." ( John 12:31-33 ).



    To me,
    This is in perfect harmony with Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8, as well as John 6:37-47, John 6:64-65 and John 17:2.
    But that's just my opinion.;)
     
    #13 Dave G, Nov 16, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2020
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  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    an attempt to permit and honor "full free will"
     
  15. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    IMHO the idea, Doctrine, and Spiritual Reality of Total Depravity MUST precede SOUND understanding of all The ONE Eternal Covenant of God's Giving Grace.
     
  16. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Draw means draw . Not dragged .
     
  17. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Notice the word ' draw ' is used .
     
  18. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    You need to explain that if you hold to the ' drag ' interpretation how it is that Jesus ' drags ' ALL MEN to him ? it really is your problem not mine . I believe it means ' attracts ' . So with ' attracts ' there is no ' universalism issue. You have the universalism issue.
     
  19. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    All Kinds; not just Jews.
     
  20. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Acts 11
    18¶When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to some of the elect Gentiles granted repentance unto life. ?

    No its ..
    18¶When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
     
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