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"Private Interpretation"

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Adonia, May 15, 2019.

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  1. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    #7 debunking continued ...

    Jesus, is the one who binds satan upon the desolated earth for 1,000 years, laying the sins off from himself (already atoned for for the saints by the blood and final atonement of Jesus), and placing them squarely upon the instigator of all sin, satan, that he must bear his own penalty for having tempted people to commit those sins. The scapegoat does not make an atonement for the saint. Notice the text of scripture:

    Leviticus 16:10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

    Notice, not an 'atonement' for him, but rather 'with him'. The scapegoat must pay the price for having tempted people to commit those sins. The wicked (finally impenitent) will bear their own sins.

    The narrator seems to conveniently forget Leviticus 16 and the 'scapegoat' (typology):

    Leviticus 16:8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.

    Leviticus 16:10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

    Leviticus 16:26 And he that let go the goat for the scapegoat shall wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in water, and afterward come into the camp.

    Christ Jesus is both the Bullock and the Lord's Goat, but not the Scapegoat [Azaz'el, who is representing Satan/wicked], which is why there is the mentioning of the "lots":

    And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat. Leviticus 16:8
    There would be no need for "lots" to be cast if both were to represent Christ Jesus.

    "Lots" in scripture were always used to choose between two [or more] things, not one

    [Leviticus 16:8,9,10; Numbers 26:55,56, 33:54, 34:13, 36:2,3; Deuteronomy 32:9; Joshua 13:6, 14:2, 15:1, 16:1, 17:1,2,14,17, 18:6,8,10,11, 19:1,10,17,24,32,40,51, 21:4,5,6,8,10,20,40, 23:4; Judges 1:3, 20:9; 1 Samuel 14:41; 1 Chronicles 6:54,61,63,65, 16:18, 24:5,7,31, 25:8,9, 26:13,14,16; Esther 3:7, 9:24; Nehemiah 10:34, 11:1; Psalms 16:5, 22:18, 105:11, 125:3; Proverbs 1:14, 16:33, 18:18; Isaiah 17:14, 34:17, 57:6; Jeremiah 13:25; Ezekiel 24:6, 45:1, 47:22, 48:29; Daniel 12:13; Joel 3:3; Obadiah 1:11; Jonah 1:7; Micah 2:5; Nahum 3:10; Luke 1:9; Acts 1:26, 8:21, 13:19].

    Notice, that both goats receive a designation, "one lot for the LORD".

    How many for the LORD? Two or one? It is only "one".

    The other "lot" was not then "for the LORD", but rather for someone else, "the other lot for the scapegoat".

    Notice "for the scapegoat", not "for the LORD".

    Also notice, that the scapegoat was not to make atonement for the people of God or sanctuary, but with "him", the "scapegoat":

    But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, [and] to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness. - Leviticus 16:10

    The Scapegoat was also never sacrificed, but to be "presented alive before the LORD", for the reason of making "atonement with him", after which the scapegoat was to be "let ... go ... into the wilderness", representing the desolate earth during the 1,000 years:

    Satan [represented by the scapegoat, `aza'zel, not a sacrifice for sin, but ultimately responsible for all sin] then, after the Saints are "caught up" "to meet the Lord" "into the air" and the wicked are "brought low" and "slain" [to await their final sentencing in the Second resurrection after the 1000 years], is bound by his surrounding circumstance in the "1000 years" on the desolate Earth, the "wilderness" a "land not inhabited" [see Jeremiah 4:23-29, 25:33], where was once the "fruitful place", and he is bound and led away by the "strong man" [Jesus Christ; Psalms 19:5; Proverbs 24:5; Luke 11:22], just as Leviticus 16 and Revelation 20:1-3 reveal [for events beforehand compare also Leviticus 16:17 to Revelation 15:8, and also Leviticus 16:20; Isaiah 16:21 with Jesus coming out of Heaven to Hebrews 9:28]:

    And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy [place], until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel. - Leviticus 16:17

    [compare to]

    And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled. - Revelation 15:8

    Then also:

    And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy [place], and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat: - Leviticus 16:20

    For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. - Isaiah 26:21

    [compare to]

    So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. - Hebrews 9:28

    Then also:

    And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat. - Leviticus 16:8

    But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, [and] to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness. - Leviticus 16:10

    And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy [place], and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat: - Leviticus 16:20

    [compare to...]

    And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. - Revelation 20:1

    Then:

    And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send [him] away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: - Leviticus 16:21

    And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness. - Leviticus 16:22

    [compare to...]

    And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, - Revelation 20:2

    And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. - Revelation 20:3

    Satan is to be "presented alive" [Leviticus 16:10], and is not eliminated at the 2nd Advent, but is to be taken and "bound" by a "great chain" [see Lamentations 3:7; 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6, for this is no ordinary chain of metal, seeing the devil may break these [Luke 8:29, etc], but a chain of circumstance] and "let go" into "the wilderness" alive.

    "bottomless pit" is the Greek ἄβυσσος - abussos, and means, void, a desert wilderness [see also Luke 8:29 "into the wilderness", connected with Luke 8:31, "the deep", compare also to Mark 5:10, "away out of the country", out from cultivated and populated areas], see also LXX Genesis 1:2 "without form and void" - h de gh hn aoratos kai akataskeuastos kai skotos epanw ths abussou kai pneuma qeou epefereto epanw tou udatos, etc.

    Consider also texts, which speak of the, "after many days" [1,000 years], "And they shall be gathered together, [as] prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited." Isaiah 24:22 and "After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land [that is] brought back from the sword, [and is] gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them." Ezekiel 38:8

    [see Gog and Magog in Revelation 20, see context in Ezekiel 38]

    The earth during the 1,000 years has no human inhabitant, for the earth is laid low by the 7 last plagues, destruction, 2nd Advent, the righteous are all "caught up together" [1 Thessalonians 4:15-17], and all of the wicked slain or remain slain until after the 1,000 years [Revelation 20:5a]. Satan is bound there, a place once of a Garden, a place once of Babylon the Great, now to become a "habitation of dragons" [Isaiah 34:14], "a parched ground", "thirsty land" [Isaiah 35:7]:

    And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, [and] a court for owls. Isaiah 34:14

    Dragon the symbol of satan, and owls the unclean night raptors/devils.

    #7 is debunked.

    About half way there, and the narrator had nothing to show for it so far.
     
  2. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    #8

    [Time Index: 9:11 – 10:08] Can we say we are saved right now by Christ's grace?

    Ellen White says, “No.” (according to the video) and cites Christ's Object Lesson, page 155:

    “... Those who accept the Saviour, however sincere their conversion, should never be taught to say or to feel that they are saved. […] Those who accept Christ, and in their first confidence say, I am saved, are in danger of trusting to themselves ...” - Christ's Object Lessons (1900), page 155

    The Bible says, “Yes.” (according to the video) and cites John 5:24; 1 John 5:13

    John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

    1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

    First of all, the citation as given by the narrator on screen and as read, is in error, as it takes two sentences from two differing paragraphs on the same page and mashed them together without any ellipses or notification that they are not together in the original material. Here is the citations in their context, highlighted properly:

    “... The evil that led to Peter's fall and that shut out the Pharisee from communion with God is proving the ruin of thousands today. There is nothing so offensive to God or so dangerous to the human soul as pride and self-sufficiency. Of all sins it is the most hopeless, the most incurable. [155] {COL 154.4}

    Peter's fall was not instantaneous, but gradual. Self-confidence led him to the belief that he was saved, and step after step was taken in the downward path, until he could deny his Master. Never can we safely put confidence in self or feel, this side of heaven, that we are secure against temptation. Those who accept the Saviour, however sincere their conversion, should never be taught to say or to feel that they are saved. This is misleading. Every one should be taught to cherish hope and faith; but even when we give ourselves to Christ and know that He accepts us, we are not beyond the reach of temptation. God's word declares, "Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried." Daniel 12:10. Only he who endures the trial will receive the crown of life. (James 1:12.) {COL 155.1}

    Those who accept Christ, and in their first confidence say, I am saved, are in danger of trusting to themselves. They lose sight of their own weakness and their constant need of divine strength. They are unprepared for Satan's devices, and under temptation many, like Peter, fall into the very depths of sin. We are admonished, "Let him that thinketh he standeth, take heed lest he fall." 1 Corinthians 10:12. Our only safety is in constant distrust of self, and dependence on Christ. {COL 155.2} ...” - Christ's Object Lessons (1900), page 154.4-155.2

    Sister White is not saying that a person is not 'saved by grace through faith' in Christ Jesus.

    “... Those who trust wholly in the righteousness of Christ, looking to him in living faith, know the Spirit of Christ, and are known of Christ. Simple faith enables the believer to reckon himself dead indeed unto sin, and alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. We are saved by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves; it is the gift of God. Should we try to unfold these precious promises to the worldly wise, they would but ridicule us; for “the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” ...” - The Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, July 1, 1890, par. 3

    She is dealing with the sin of presumption and the possibility of falling through temptation, being a castaway after having accepted the sacrifice of Christ Jesus (1 Corinthians 9:27; Hebrews 6:4-8; examples King Saul, (OT), Ananias and Sapphira (NT), and see the sanctuary itself, in that a forgiven sinner, could be cut off in the Day of Atonement if found unworthy (not living according to God's Law of Liberty by grace through faith) of the sacrifice, etc). Again, the error is upon the part of the OSAS mindset, not sister White here, and if they condemn her for it, then they condemn all who believe as we do on it the same. The narrator has double standards and doesn't check his sources.
     
  3. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    #8 debunked continued:

    Again:

    “... “He hath made him to be sin for us, ... that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” If Christ is abiding in the soul, our prayers and works are wholly acceptable to God. Through obedience to all the commandments of God, we are accepted in the Beloved. We enter into the rights and privileges of Jesus, and the victories which he achieves.

    All those who say, “I am saved! I am saved!” but do not obey God's commandments, are resting their salvation on a false hope, a false foundation. No one who has an intelligent knowledge of the requirements of God, can be saved in disobedience. Just so far as men have a knowledge of the words of Christ, so plainly laid down in the Bible, they will be held responsible.

    In the fourteenth chapter of John much is said about keeping the commandments of God. “He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me.” “If a man love me, he will keep my words; and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings; and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.” No one can abide in Christ and treat the law of God with indifference and disrespect; for this would be arraying Christ against Christ. In a heart renewed by the Spirit of truth there will be love for all the commandments of God. Jesus declares, “I have kept my Father's commandments;” and all who love Jesus will live in communion with God and with the Son. Those who make so much show of rejoicing, saying they are in Christ, but do not obey the commandments of God, do not partake of the nourishment of the living vine. All who are grafted into the parent stock will have a vital union with the living vine. They will love that which Christ loves; their taste will be identical with his. Jesus plainly stated that when we treasure up his words and do them, we give evidence that we have that genuine love which makes us one with the Father. We are one in taste and inclination. The Spirit of Jesus fills the Christian with his love, his obedience, his joy. “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love, even as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.”

    Man has voluntarily departed from God. Jesus came to do a work which no other could do,—to bring man back to his allegiance to God. How unreasonable it is for fallen man to say that Christ's great work of redemption was for the purpose of making it possible for man to be saved in transgression of the law of God! If one precept of God's law could be changed, then Christ need not have died; but it was because the law of God was unchangeable, and would hold the sinner in its claims, that Jesus came and died, to reconcile man to God. His death shows the immutability of the law. The law of God is as changeless as his own character. Man's only hope was in the death of Christ. And in his death Christ bore testimony to the whole universe that Satan's efforts to change the law were an utter failure. Now it is demonstrated that even for the human beings that have been deceived by Satan and made to transgress the law, there can be no pardon except through the death of the only-begotten Son of the Infinite God himself, who suffered the penalty of man's transgression. And this is the testimony that in the judgment will condemn every transgressor.

    Was such an infinite sacrifice made by the Son of God for the purpose of perpetuating sin?—No; it was not possible. There was no possibility that man, who had estranged himself from God, would be able to keep God's holy law. Christ died that he might, by virtue of his own righteousness, elevate humanity. He gave man another trial. Man, weak, sinful, ignorant, must look to Jesus if he would live. “Without me ye can do nothing.” He has learned to be obedient to all the commandments of God, through Jesus Christ, who is made to him wisdom, sanctification, and righteousness. ...” - The Signs of the Times, December 28, 1891, par. 13-17

    As for John 5:24, it requires continued (ongoing, active, living) faith (“believeth”; πιστευωνG4100 V-PAP-NSM; being verb (action), present (now), active (alive), participle, nominative, singular, masculine), and is not a one-time (in the past, over and done) “I believe Lord” and its done. No, it is only the beginning of the walk, not its end. They mistake 'born again' for fully developed. Thy mistake having “eternal life” in themselves, rather than it always being in Christ Jesus, and anyone found outside of Him, no longer has it. The fault is again, in the presumptuous OSAS heresy.

    As for 1 John 5:13, the entire context of the previous verses:

    1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

    1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

    Where is the “eternal life”? It is always “in his (the Father's) Son (Christ Jesus)”, and only those who “hath the Son hath (eternal) life”, and those who are found outside of Christ Jesus through their own neglect, no longer have it.

    #8 is debunked, unless one is a presumptuous OSAS defender. At that point, they cannot fault sister White for their mistake, even when so many others are in agreement with her on this, even not of Seventh-day Adventists backgrounds, and long before her and in as many commentaries. Those who are stubborn in the OSAS mindset worship Calvinism, rather than God, rather than acknowledge His word.
     
  4. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    #9, a more serious charge:

    [Time Index: 10:09 – 10:47] Can ignorant slaves be saved?

    Ellen White says, “No.” (according to the video) and cites Early Writings; page 276:

    “... God cannot take to heaven the slave who has been kept in ignorance and degradation, knowing nothing of God or the Bible, fearing nothing but his master's lash, and holding a lower position than the brutes. ...” - Early Writings (1882), page 276

    The Bible says, “Yes.” (according to the video) and cites Galatians 3:28; John 1:9:

    Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

    John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

    Here is the context of Early Writings (1882), page 276:

    “... I saw that the slave master [see Appendix.] will have to answer for the soul of his slave whom he has kept in ignorance; and the sins of the slave will be visited upon the master. God cannot take to heaven the slave who has been kept in ignorance and degradation, knowing nothing of God or the Bible, fearing nothing but his master's lash, and holding a lower position than the brutes. But He does the best thing for him that a compassionate God can do. He permits him to be as if he had not been, while the master must endure the seven last plagues and then come up in the second resurrection and suffer the second, most awful death. Then the justice of God will be satisfied. ...” - Early Writings (1882), page 276.1

    Sister White is speaking of the 'slave' (regardless of skin colour or age or gender) that was born into slavery and raised as nothing but a brute, without knowledge, only used for labour (as a mule, and beat as much as Balaam's donkey), without language, without knowledge (“kept in ignorance”), knowing only carnal nature, the flesh and base 'creature' passion (hunger, thirst, fear, etc). The Bible speaks of those rare individuals (adults and children), who came about through sin and a fallen world, whom God will cause to be as though they had not been, for God is merciful, knowing that they could not enjoy Heaven (having no mind to), and they do not deserve the punishment of the finally impenitent, and so they, in God's righteousness, will be as though they had not been.

    Job 10:19 I should have been as though I had not been; I should have been carried from the womb to the grave.

    Job 3:2 And Job spake, and said,

    Job 3:3 Let the day perish wherein I was born, and the night in which it was said, There is a man child conceived.

    Job 3:4 Let that day be darkness; let not God regard it from above, neither let the light shine upon it.

    Job 3:5 Let darkness and the shadow of death stain it; let a cloud dwell upon it; let the blackness of the day terrify it.

    Job 3:6 As for that night, let darkness seize upon it; let it not be joined unto the days of the year, let it not come into the number of the months.

    Job 3:7 Lo, let that night be solitary, let no joyful voice come therein.

    Job 3:8 Let them curse it that curse the day, who are ready to raise up their mourning.

    Job 3:9 Let the stars of the twilight thereof be dark; let it look for light, but have none; neither let it see the dawning of the day:

    Job 3:10 Because it shut not up the doors of my mother's womb, nor hid sorrow from mine eyes.

    Job 3:11 Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?

    Job 3:12 Why did the knees prevent me? or why the breasts that I should suck?

    Job 3:13 For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest,

    Job 3:16 Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light.

    Job 3:17 There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest.

    Job 3:18 There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor.

    Job 3:18 The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master.

    Psalms 58:5 As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.

    Ecclesiastes 4:3 Yea, better is he than both they, which hath not yet been, who hath not seen the evil work that is done under the sun.

    Ecclesiastes 6:3 If a man beget an hundred children, and live many years, so that the days of his years be many, and his soul be not filled with good, and also that he have no burial; I say, that an untimely birth is better than he.

    Deuteronomy 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

    Isaiah 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

    Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
     
  5. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    #9 continued to be debunked...

    These special cases are without knowledge of right or wrong (kept cruelly in ignorance of God, or anything), some (adults) only knowing “the fear of the lash”, and not the fear of anything else, not even God (having never known Him). They do not enter Heaven, nor suffer the fire of the wicked to come. They are a rare class, brought about because of sin, and a fallen world, not knowing the difference between evil and good, but whose cries of pain, suffering, an end to the misery (that God (Christ Jesus) Himself bore in Gethsemane and Calvary) was heard, and will be answered. Even these will demonstrate the love of God.

    Sister White is explicit in that those 'slaves' who had minds, and reason, and could be renewed, be 'saved', have that opportunity:

    “... Then commenced the jubilee, when the land should rest. I saw the pious slave rise in triumph and victory and shake off the chains that bound him, while his wicked master was in confusion and knew not what to do; for the wicked could not understand the words of the voice of God. Soon appeared the great white cloud. It looked more lovely than ever before. On it sat the Son of man. At first we did not see Jesus on the cloud, but as it drew near the earth we could behold His lovely person. This cloud, when it first appeared, was the sign of the Son of man in heaven. The voice of the Son of God called forth the sleeping saints, clothed with glorious immortality. The living saints were changed in a moment and were caught up with them into the cloudy chariot. It looked all over glorious as it rolled upward. On either side of the chariot were wings, and beneath it wheels. And as the chariot rolled upward, the wheels cried, “Holy,” and the wings, as they moved, cried, “Holy,” and the retinue of holy angels around the cloud cried, “Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty!” And the saints in the cloud cried, “Glory! Alleluia!” And the chariot rolled upward to the Holy City. Jesus threw open the gates of the golden city and led us in. Here we were made welcome, for we had kept the “commandments of God,” and had a “right to the tree of life.” ...” - Early Writings (1882); page 35.1

    “... Christ said to His disciples: "They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. . . . I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Those who realize their guilt, feel their need of the Saviour. Why, O why, has not more been done to diffuse light into the darkened minds of the colored race? Christ died for the colored people as verily as He died for the white people. Through faith in Christ the colored people may attain unto eternal life as verily as may the white people. Those whom the Lord sees neglected by us have been entrusted with reasoning powers, and yet they have been treated as though they had no souls. They have been wounded by a so-called Christian nation. They have been left by the wayside, and decided efforts will have to be made to counteract the wrong that has been done them. But though they have been despised and neglected of men, God has given special help and enlightenment to many who were in slavery. He has illuminated their darkness when they were in the most unfavorable circumstances, and they have revealed to the world the elements of the greatness in Christian character. Many of the black race have been rich in faith and trust in God. They have manifested divine compassion for those whom they could help. They have known what it was to hunger for sympathy and help; for they were but neglected by those who saw their wretchedness and could have helped them, but who passed by on the other side, as the priest and the Levite passed by the bruised and wounded one. There are souls among the colored race that can be reached, and the very kind of labor which their circumstances require should be put forth, that they may be saved. When these souls are converted to the truth, they will become partakers of the divine nature, and will go forth to rescue their fellow men, to lead those who are in darkness into light. They can be helped in their low estate, and in their turn can contribute to the good of others. {SW 29.1} ...” - The Southern Work (1898, 1901), page 29.1

    As for Galatians 3:28, it speaks only to those “in Christ”, and such a person as sister White is describing in the cited quotation by the narrator, is not “in Christ” simply by being born into the world, for if that were the case, then belief has nothing to do with salvation at all. It is a misuse of the text, and instead refers to such a person as Onesimus (Philemon 1) or to those Israelites that came out of Egypt and accepted the sacrifice of the Lamb, or to Joseph (slave in Egypt, etc), etc.

    John 1:9 refers to receiving 'life' from Jesus the Creator, who sustains all living by and through Himself (Colossians 1:16):

    John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

    John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

    John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

    John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

    John 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

    John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

    Notice that the text speaks of “man”, “men” (mankind) who are able to 'believe' (vs 7), but the context of the other verses cited show that some are not 'men' able to 'believe', but either are stillborn, (untimely birth, damaged (such as Anencephaly), aborted, etc), or are born in the world as nothing but to be brutes, treated less than dogs, (having not the mind of men, the image of God being erased completely from them) because of their condition of abject slavery used as merely vessels of flesh (objects), unable to ever 'believe' (vs 7) or know anything higher than base desire (hunger, pain, fear, etc).

    Sister White is also not speaking about (in the cited quotation) those born in the wilds (bushmen, aboriginal, etc) who are raised in families, knowing nothing but the nature around them and familial society, for they too can enter Heaven, for they are clearly pointed out in Romans 2:14-15, for even them, having minds free (from abject slavery), are able to come to know Christ Jesus, but it will be in the here-after:

    Zechariah 13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

    This is hard for some to accept. Therefore, it is written for them: “... He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. ...” (Mat 19:12), and if any man choose to be ignorant, it is written for them: “But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.” (1 Cor 14:38).

    If any desire they can read a response by the White Estate here - Ellen G. White and Her Critics

    #9 is debunked, and moreso, since the narrator falsely charged sister White with something she never said nor intimated and is 'ignorant' (willfully or not remains to be seen) of their own scriptures they claim to cite.
     
  6. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    #10

    [Time Index: 10:49 – 11:43] Can we legitimately say, “I have ceased to sin?”

    Ellen White says, “Yes.” (according to the video) and cites The Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, August 28, 1894 (Vol. 71, No. 35), page 1 & The Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, September 25, 1900 (Vol. 77, No. 39), page 1:

    “... Christ died to make it possible for you to cease to sin, and sin is the transgression of the law. ...” - The Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, August, 28: 1894, par. 4

    “... To be redeemed means to cease from sin. ...” - The Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, September 25, 1900; par. 10

    The Bible says, “No.” (according to the video) and cites 1 John 1:7-9; Ephesians 2:8-9:

    1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

    1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    Isn't it amazing how many persons quote Ephesians 2:8-9 and never the conclusion of the thought, vs 10 and so take Ephesians 2:8-9 out of their context to suit their sinful lifestyles? (1 John 3:4):

    Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    The same thought is found in Titus:

    Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

    Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

    Titus 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

    Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

    Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

    Here is the context of the two sister White quotations:

    “... Today the question is to come home to every heart, Do you believe in the Son of God? The question is not, Do you admit that Jesus is the Redeemer of the world? and that you should repeat to your soul and to others, “Believe, believe, all you have to do is to believe;” but, Do you have practical faith in the Son of God, so that you bring him into your life and character until you are one with him? Many accept of the theory of Christ, but they make it manifest by their works that they do not know him as the Saviour who died for the sins of men, who bore the penalty of their transgression, in order that they might be brought back to their loyalty to God, and through the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour, might find acceptance with God in their obedience to his law. Christ died to make it possible for you to cease to sin, and sin is the transgression of the law. ...” - The Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, August, 28: 1894, par. 4

    “... Many see much to admire in the life of Christ. But true love for him can never dwell in the heart of the self-righteous. Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ's character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ. The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption. To be redeemed means to cease from sin. No heart that is stirred to rebellion against the law of God has any union with Christ, who died to vindicate the law and exalt it before all nations, tongues, and peoples. Pharisaic self-complacency and bold assumptions of holiness are abundant. There are many who do not see themselves in the light of the law of God. They do not loathe selfishness; therefore they are selfish. Their souls are spotted and defiled. Yet with sin-stained lips they say, “I am holy. Jesus teaches me that the law of God is a yoke of bondage. Those who say that we must keep the law have fallen from grace.”

    Christ says, “Blessed are they that do his commandments.” The heavenly benediction is pronounced upon those who keep the law. “They shall have right to the tree of life,” the Saviour declares, “and shall enter in through the gates into the city.”

    We must decide for ourselves whether or not these words will be spoken to us. A right decision will be revealed by action in harmony with the law of God. But we can not possibly keep the commandments without the help of Christ. He alone can save us, by cleansing us from all sin. He does not save us by the law; but neither will he save us in disobedience to the law. He draws us to himself because he has been lifted upon the cross of Calvary.

    The degree of our love for God depends upon the clearness and fullness of our conviction of sin. “By the law is the knowledge of sin.” The more we see of the perils to which we have been exposed by sin, the more grateful we shall be for deliverance. ...”- The Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, September 25, 1900; par. 10-13

    Anyone who says that they are 'saved' and continue in known transgression of God's Law (1 John 3:4; Exodus 20:1-17), have deceived themselves. They are no more 'saved' than the wicked who never took the name of Christ Jesus upon their lips for salvation. They are still lost in their sins, but have deluded themselves that it is ok to continue to live in sin (1 John 3:4) and so to justify themselves they make every manner of excuse to ignore and forget the one commandment God (the Creator/Redeemer) said to “Remember”, and so in transgressing that one, they break every single commandment of God (James 2:10).

    They are in truth, anti-nominians. They are anti-Law. They are anti-Throne of God. They are anti-Governance. They anarchists in the fullest sense. They in turn have placed their own self-righteousness (their own laws and rules) in the place of God's Law, just as the Pharisees of old did.

    The narrator wrests 1 John 1:7-9 and twists its meaning by implying through the “No”, that mankind cannot ever have victory over sin, ever.
     
    #126 Alofa Atu, May 30, 2019
    Last edited: May 30, 2019
  7. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    #10 debunking the bunk continued ...

    Scripture (including 1 John 1:7-9) teaches no such thing, since even (1 John 1:7, says, we are to “walk in the light”, not “in darkness” (vs 6), and as we walk in that light, “the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin”, since it is a process of removing all sin from our lives, so that not one stain remains (a person can think of it like a washing machine, where it cycles around and around (sanctification, Holy Place) with the cleansing agent (blood of Christ Jesus) until the spots (sins) are removed completely (a person stops forever smoking, cussing, stealing, killing, lying, etc, etc sabbath breaking, etc.), but if the person falls out of Christ, back unto the dirty ground, carnal nature, then they are not having their spots removed, but adding more to themselves):

    Paul warned:

    Philippians 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

    Philippians 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

    The scripture says:

    Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

    “from their sins”, not “in their sins”.

    Isaiah 42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

    The same Apostle John, wrote:

    1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

    1 John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

    1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

    1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

    Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

    Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    Notice 1 John 1:7 is that as a Christian, we are to “walk in the light”, which is following the example (1 Peter 2:21) of Christ Jesus (who is the light of the world (John 8:12, 9:5, 11:9), and did no sin (1 Peter 2:22)). It also says, that as we so walk in the light “the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” It doesn't say that the blood of Jesus only cleasnes us a little and that a little sin remaining is ok. No, Jesus came to save us from every last sin that we commit, and by His blood this is possible. This is the true and everlasting Gospel, rather than the weak and pathetic excuse of 'another gospel' that has no power to save anyone from anything ever.

    1 John 1:8 is connected to 1 John 1:9, in that vs 8 is speaking of our past sins, that we have accumulated, and carry at the present (before accepting Christ Jesus), which is truth. It is not saying that we will continue to sin inspite of the blood of Jesus. It is speaking of our need of the blood of Jesus, that we must admit that we have sin (1 John 3:4, and this is not an imaginary nothing, it is real, our thinkings, sayings and doings, not doings), that we need to be cleansed of. This is why John then connects the thought in vs 9. Therefore, we acknowledge our sins, and take them to Jesus, who then cleanses us from them, not merely in theory, but in practicality, in reality. If I smoked cigarettes, I must acknowledge that this is sin as John says, and then confess that to Jesus, who then imputes His righteousness and also imparts His righteousness, so that I am not only cleansed of the past sins (smoking), and now have the victory over smoking at any point in the future, forever. This is the true Gospel. Victory over sin through Christ Jesus. How powerless the so-called 'gospel' of those who say that sin cannot be overcome even in the strength of Almighty God at Calvary.

    Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

    Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

    1 Timothy 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

    2 Peter 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

    Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

    The narrator has to make John disagree with John. They will answer to God for it.

    Jesus said:

    John 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

    John 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

    Exodus 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

    Deuteronomy 5:10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

    John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    God's grace ought to lead one to obedience. We are to be “cleansed from all (not some, not a little) unrighteousness”. God's Law is righteousness (Psalms 119:142,172; Isaiah 42:21; Isaiah 48:18, 51:7; Romans 8:4, 10:4).

    #10 is debunked.
     
  8. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    #11

    [Time Index: 11:45 – 12:23] Is obeying the commandments the only way to earn God's favor?

    Ellen White says, “Yes.” (according to the video) and cites Testimonies for the Church, Volume 4, page 28 and adds a word in brackets, of themselves, not found in the original:

    “... To obey the commandments of God is the only way to obtain [earn] His favor. ...” - Testimonies for the Church, Volume 4, page 28

    The Bible says, “No.” (according to the video) and cites Isaiah 64:6; Galatians 3:11:

    Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

    Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

    First of all, the narrator while reading the Testimonies for the Church, Volume 4, page 28, reads the sentence correctly, the onscreen citation adds its own word in brackets “[earn]”, self-defining “obtain”, when it means no such thing in its context.

    For instance, see:

    Proverbs 8:35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.

    Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

    The Person to be sought is Christ Jesus, and He is always found “[doing] the will of [His] Father” (John 5:30), which is keeping God's commandments (John 15:10), being life, as Jesus lives by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of His Father (Matthew 4:4; Luke 4:4; John 6:57). In so, doing (obtain[ed]), was it 'earned' as the one screen wording puts it? No. It is an abuse of terms in their context. Sister White is using the above passage and expounding upon it using the other terms scripture gives as noted.

    Does the word 'obtain' mean to earn by our merits, our works? No:

    1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

    Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

    Hebrews 11:33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,

    Hebrews 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

    Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

    1 Peter 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

    2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

    Will the author of the video, whether narrator or not, like to also not be a complete hypocrite and add the word “[earn(ed)]” after each word “obtain[ed]” in the above verses? If not, why not?

    Here is the quotation of sister White in its context:

    “... The clouds that gather about our way will never disappear before a halting, doubting spirit. Unbelief says: “We can never surmount these obstructions; let us wait until they are removed, and we can see our way clearly.” But faith courageously urges an advance, hoping all things, believing all things. Obedience to God is sure to bring the victory. It is only through faith that we can reach heaven.

    There is great similarity between our history and that of the children of Israel. God led His people from Egypt into the wilderness, where they could keep His law and obey His voice. The Egyptians, who had no regard for the Lord, were encamped close by them; yet what was to the Israelites a great flood of light, illuminating the whole camp, and shedding brightness upon the path before them, was to the hosts of Pharaoh a wall of clouds, making blacker the darkness of night.

    So, at this time, there is a people whom God has made the depositaries of His law. To those who obey them, the commandments of God are as a pillar of fire, lighting and leading the way to eternal salvation. But unto those who disregard them, they are as the clouds of night. “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.” Better than all other knowledge is an understanding of the word of God. In keeping His commandments there is great reward, and no earthly inducement should cause the Christian to waver for a moment in his allegiance. Riches, honor, and worldly pomp are but as dross that shall perish before the fire of God's wrath.

    The voice of the Lord bidding His faithful ones “go forward” frequently tries their faith to the uttermost. But if they should defer obedience till every shadow of uncertainty was removed from their understanding, and there remained [page 27-28] no risk of failure or defeat, they would never move on at all. Those who think it impossible for them to yield to the will of God and have faith in His promises until all is made clear and plain before them, will never yield at all. Faith is not certainty of knowledge; it “is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” To obey the commandments of God is the only way to obtain His favor.Go forward” should be the Christian's watchword. ...” - Testimonies for the Church, Volume 4, pages 27-28

    The context of the statement, is in the light of, living real faith, a faith of action, not a mere “Lord, Lord” nothing, notice, “... But faith courageously urges an advance, hoping all things, believing all things. Obedience to God is sure to bring the victory. It is only through faith that we can reach heaven. ...”, which then ties to “... To those who obey them, the commandments of God are as a pillar of fire, lighting and leading the way to eternal salvation ...”, which then ties to, “... The voice of the Lord bidding His faithful ones “go forward” frequently tries their faith to the uttermost ...”, which comes to the conclusion, “... To obey the commandments of God is the only way to obtain His favor.Go forward” should be the Christian's watchword. ...”

    For when God says, “Go forward”, it is only through living abiding faith, a faith that trusts and takes hold of God's strength and promises that enables one to obey the command of God, whatever it be, and so do what is commanded, by obeying through faith.

    It was never earned. It was 'obtained' by God's grace through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God, lest we boast (Ephesians 2:8-10; Titus 3:4-7) …
     
  9. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    #11 continued sound spanking and thorough debunking continues:

    We 'obtained' salvation as the free gift of God, through faith, and by that faith, we obey[ed] God in what He asks.

    Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

    Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

    Which refers right back to Proverbs 8:35, etc. Notice the next verse:

    Proverbs 8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

    What was 'sin' again? Oh yeah … 1 John 3:4. Notice the contrast of 'death' in disobedience to God (which is doubt), in comparison to 'life' and 'favour' which is in faithful obedience to God. This is all through the Bible:

    James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

    James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

    James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

    James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

    James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

    James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

    James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

    James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

    James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

    James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    As for Isaiah 64:6 that is speaking of works apart from Christ, our works, not His works in us. A total misuse of that text.

    As for Galatians 3:11, neither sister White, nor any true Seventh-day Adventist teaches justification by Law, but teach Justification by faith, and that faith leads unto obedience to God, just as Galatians 3:11 (citing Hab 2:4, also in Rom 1:7; Heb 10:38), says, “the just shall live by faith” and “[to] live” is to do, action, the way, the walk, the talk, the thoughts, such as obey God through the faith in all things.

    #11 is debunked, and moreso proved that the author of the video, whether the narrator or not, has to add a word “[earn]” to make sister White say things she never said.
     
  10. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    #12

    [Time Index: 12:25 – 13:32] Did Jesus enter the Most Holy Place of the Heavenly Temple before October 22, 1844?

    Ellen White says, “No.” (according to the video) and cites Early Writings, page 42:

    “I was shown that … the door was opened in the most holy place in the heavenly sanctuary, where the ark is, in which are contained the ten commandments. This door was not opened until the mediation of Jesus was finished in the holy place of the sanctuary in 1844. Then Jesus rose up and shut the door of the holy place, and opened the door into the most holy, and passed within the second veil, where He now stands by the ark.” - Early Writings, page 42

    The Bible says, “Yes.” (according to the video) and cites Hebrews 9:12:

    Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

    The narrator then reads another onscreen statement [Time Index 13:13 – 13:32]:

    “This Bible text was written in 60 AD, and it states that Jesus was already ministering in the Most Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary at least 1,800 years before 1844. Ellen White's scenario simply contradicts the clearest scriptures!”

    Firstly, Hebrews 9:12, even by the citation on the video, doesn't say “Most Holy Place”. Not in any language of the preserved mss, etc does it say it either. Not even in the UBS and N/A text notations on extant mss.

    Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

    Hebrews 9:12 GNT TR - ουδε δι αιματος τραγων και μοσχων δια δε του ιδιου αιματος εισηλθεν εφαπαξ εις τα αγια αιωνιαν λυτρωσιν ευραμενος

    What did the text say plainly? “once into the holy place (ta [h]agia)”. Not “Most Holy Place” ([h]agia [h]agion).

    There is not a single extant mss, codici or papyrii, [etc] written in Koine Greek [or in any language] that reads "αγια αγιων" [the Most Holy Place, see Hebrews 9:3 KJB, GNT TR] here in Hebrews 9:12, but plainly reads in all known extant mss, etc in any language, "τα αγια" [the sanctuary, ie first apartment, the holy place].

    the Latin [Jerome's Vulgate] reads, "in sancta",

    the German Luther Bibel 1545 reads, "das Heilige",

    the Wycliffe reads "the holy",

    Stephanus 1550 reads, "τα αγια",

    Scrivener's 1894 reads, "τα αγια",

    and even Westcott's and Hort's 1881 reads, "τα αγια",

    the UBS 5th reads, "τὰ ἅγια",

    the Novum Testamentum Graece 28th [Eberhard Nestle's / Kurt Aland's, etc] reads, "τὰ ἅγια" without a single footnote in either 'scholars' work indicating any deviation from this reading in any known extant mss, etc.]

    Here are the other texts, read them for yourself and shew thyself approved unto God:

    Hebrews 8:2 KJB - A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
    Hebrews 8:2 GNT TR - των αγιων λειτουργος και της σκηνης της αληθινης ην επηξεν ο κυριος και ουκ ανθρωπος

    Hebrews 9:1 KJB - Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
    Hebrews 9:1 GNT TR - ειχεν μεν ουν και η πρωτη δικαιωματα λατρειας το τε αγιον κοσμικον

    Hebrews 9:2 KJB - For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
    Hebrews 9:2 GNT TR - σκηνη γαρ κατεσκευασθη η πρωτη εν η η τε λυχνια και η τραπεζα και η προθεσις των αρτων ητις λεγεται αγια

    Hebrews 9:3 KJB - And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
    Hebrews 9:3 GNT TR - μετα δε το δευτερον καταπετασμα σκηνη η λεγομενη αγια αγιων

    Hebrews 9:7 KJB - But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
    Hebrews 9:7 GNT TR - εις δε την δευτεραν απαξ του ενιαυτου μονος ο αρχιερευς ου χωρις αιματος ο προσφερει υπερ εαυτου και των του λαου αγνοηματων

    Hebrews 9:8 KJB - The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
    Hebrews 9:8 GNT TR - τουτο δηλουντος του πνευματος του αγιου μηπω πεφανερωσθαι την των αγιων οδον ετι της πρωτης σκηνης εχουσης στασιν

    Hebrews 9:24 KJB - For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
    Hebrews 9:24 GNT TR - ου γαρ εις χειροποιη τα αγια εισηλθεν ο χριστος αντιτυπα των αληθινων αλλ εις αυτον τον ουρανον νυν εμφανισθηναι τω προσωπω του θεου υπερ ημων

    Hebrews 9:25 KJB - Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
    Hebrews 9:25 GNT TR - ουδ ινα πολλακις προσφερη εαυτον ωσπερ ο αρχιερευς εισερχεται εις τα αγια κατ ενιαυτον εν αιματι αλλοτριω

    Hebrews 10:19 KJB - Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
    Hebrews 10:19 GNT TR - εχοντες ουν αδελφοι παρρησιαν εις την εισοδον των αγιων εν τω αιματι ιησου

    Hebrews 13:11 KJB - For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
    Hebrews 13:11 GNT TR - ων γαρ εισφερεται ζωων το αιμα περι αμαρτιας εις τα αγια δια του αρχιερεως τουτων τα σωματα κατακαιεται εξω της παρεμβολης

    Revelation 15:5 KJB - And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
    Revelation 15:5 GNT TR - και μετα ταυτα ειδον και ιδου ηνοιγη ο ναος της σκηνης του μαρτυριου εν τω ουρανω

    The error of the author/narrator of the video stems from Walter Martin (at least):

    "Walter Martin", let me show a few errors he made about what he stated, on tv, even the John Ankerberg "show", in regards Hebrews 9:12, in the Koine Greek:

    [John Ankerberg Show, with Walter Martin and William Johnsson [Review and Herald], time index 00:33:16-00:33:57] -

    "... [George E. Canon reading the [Koine] Greek New Testament, Hebrews 9:12, in the presence of Walter Martin and others at a selective closed meeting of (so-called) 'scholars'] that Jesus Christ entered once into the holiest of all with his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption for us. ...", and I [Walter Martin] asked the question, and 'Canon' did too [to the present persons meeting], "Did this [event of Hebrews 9:12] take place, as [O.R.L.] Crosier said, as Mrs. [Ellen G.] White said, as the early Adventists taught? Did it [event of Hebrews 9:12] take place in [AD] 1844, or did it [event of Hebrews 9:12] take place at the ascension of Jesus Christ [AD 31]?" [Walter Martin continues apart from the past quotation and questions asked then] The [Koine] Greek text says, at the ascension of Jesus Christ [AD 31]. Once into the holiest of all - the Most Holy Place! ..."

    Walter Martin [and associates, including John Ankerberg] was/and still are dead wrong, on both counts, and even the (so-called) LXX in Exodus 26:33 disagrees with him [them].

    Exodus 26:33 KJB - And thou shalt hang up the vail under the taches, that thou mayest bring in thither within the vail the ark of the testimony: and the vail shall divide unto you between the holy place and the most holy.

    Exodus 26:33 (so-called) LXX - καὶ θήσεις τὸ καταπέτασμα ἐπὶ τοὺς στύλους καὶ εἰσοίσεις ἐκεῖ ἐσώτερον τοῦ καταπετάσματος τὴν κιβωτὸν τοῦ μαρτυρίου· καὶ διοριεῖ τὸ καταπέτασμα ὑμῖν ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ ἁγίου καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ ἁγίου τῶν ἁγίων.

    The "holy place" [τοῦ ἁγίου] is separate [by a second "vail" [καταπέτασμα]] from and not the same as the "most holy" [τοῦ ἁγίου τῶν ἁγίων].
     
  11. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    #12 de-BUNKED!

    Here is the correct Ellen White quotation and notice where proper ellipses would go, which the narrator of author of the video left out and leaves things hanging as usual. Seriously, is that an honest practice of a Christian, ask yourself that?

    “... Sabbath, March 24, 1849, we had a sweet and very interesting meeting with the brethren at Topsham, Maine. The Holy Ghost was poured out upon us, and I was taken off in the Spirit to the city of the living God. Then I was shown that the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ relating to the shut door could not be separated, and that the time for the commandments of God to shine out with all their importance, and for God's people to be tried on the Sabbath truth, was when the door was opened in the most holy place in the heavenly sanctuary, where the ark is, in which are contained the ten commandments. This door was not opened until the mediation of Jesus was finished in the holy place of the sanctuary in 1844. Then Jesus rose up and shut the door of the holy place, and opened the door into the most holy, and passed within the second veil, where He now stands by the ark, and where the faith of Israel now reaches.

    I saw that Jesus had shut the door of the holy place, and no man can open it; and that He had opened the door into the most holy, and no man can shut it (Revelation 3:7, 8); [see page 86. See also appendix.] and that since Jesus has opened the door into the most holy place, which contains the ark, the commandments have been shining out to God's people, and they are being tested on the Sabbath question.

    I saw that the present test on the Sabbath could not come until the mediation of Jesus in the holy place was finished and He had passed within the second veil; ...” - Early Writings, page 42.1-42.3

    What is amazing, is that the author of the video, or narrator, acknowledges the real Heavenly Sanctuary, but doesn't seem to think there is a holy place ministry (Daily) for Jesus to have done before entering into the Most Holy Place (Yearly), and also seems to discount the reason for entering into those places, and especially the Most Holy Place later, in the Day of Atonement, which the author/narrator of the video also doesn't acknowledge, and so the question ought to be asked, what does the author/narrator think Jesus is doing there in the Most Holy Place, and based on what texts?

    Both Daniel; Hebrews and Revelation are clear on this point. It is irrefutable to anyone that takes the time to study carefully and prayerfully the words of the texts.

    It is impossible for Jesus to begin the Most Holy Place ministry at His ascension. Pentecost hadn't even happened then, which is needful to anoint Jesus to be High Priest as already demonstrated elsewhere in this debunking.

    Spring Feasts:

    Passover: Leviticus 23:5 [Jesus dies AD 31, First Month - Abib/Nisan 14th, the 6th Day, 3 PM]

    Feast of Unleavened Bread: Leviticus 23:6-8 [Jesus in the Tomb, Abib/Nisan 15th, the 7th Day]

    Feast of Firstfruits [Wave Sheaf]: Leviticus 23:10-14 [Jesus resurrected, Abib/Nisan 16th, 1st day]

    Pentecost [Feast of Weeks]: Leviticus 23:15-22 [Jesus, in the Holy Place, pouring of the Holy Spirit, Acts 1-3, etc Revelation 5:6; Psalms 133:1-3, etc]

    Long Summer

    Fall Feasts:

    Feast Of Trumpets: Leviticus 23:24-25 [Jesus, announcing coming Judgment, about to move, the bell is heard, 1833/4, Miller goes forward, Advent movement, Revelation 9:5,6,10; Genesis 7:24, 8:3; Luke 1:24 - “5 months”, etc]

    Day Of Atonement: Leviticus 23:27-32 [Jesus in the Most Holy Place, 1843/44, specifically Oct 22 1844, the bell is heard, Jesus and Father moved from Holy to Most Holy in Heavenly Sanctuary; Daniel 7:9-10,13,22, 8:13-14,26; Revelation 9:13-15, 10:1-6, 14:6-7] KJB

    Feast of Booths/Tabernacles/Ingathering: Leviticus 23:34-43 [Harvest, and on into Millennium and then into eternity; Revelation 7:9, 14:13-20, 15:2]

    Atonement, and the entering into the Most Holy Place could not have happened in the Spring (Calvary). It had to take place after Pentecost, after (Fall) Trumpets, and before Tabernacles.

    Jesus Christ is the God of order [1 Corinthians 14:40 KJB], not of confusion [1 Corinthians 14:33 KJB], but rather of perfect timing [Ecclesiastes 3:17 KJB]. He leads from beginning [alpha/first/author] unto the ending [omega/last/finisher], in that order, never going out of order. Christ Jesus Himself gave the times and seasons of the feasts themselves in Leviticus 23[:4] onward, and elsewhere all connected with the Sanctuary [Psalms 77:13 KJB] and also in types elsewhere, even from the Exodus [Psalms 77:19 KJB] from Egypt to Canaan, and so on.

    We need to consider that the anti-typical/reality of the Feast of Trumpets, the Day of Atonement and the feast of Tabernacles/Booths/Ingathering cannot have happened in AD 31 at the Crucifixion of Jesus, at the death of Jesus thereon, at the burial of Jesus, at the resurrection of Jesus, at the ascension of Jesus, or even up to the time of AD 34, or AD 70, but could only take place long after those events, in connection with the 2,300, which the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 were simply a small part of, as is the 1,260, 1,290 and 1,335.

    See Hebrews 9:2-3:

    For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary. Hebrews 9:2

    And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; Hebrews 9:3

    Paul is clear about the typology, First comes the First {part of the} Tabernacle, wherein was the Candlestick and the Table, even along with the Altar of Incense:

    Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. Hebrews 9:6

    Where is Jesus standing in Acts 7 {part of the Church of Ephesus} and where is He seen walking in Revelation 2:1?

    Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; Revelation 2:1

    Which of the two compartments of the Tented Sanctuary is that? It is verily the First, not the Second. Hebrews 9:12 {as also vs 24 "agia" and vs 25, "ta agia"} simply reads ta agia, which is the Sanctuary, and not agia agion, the Holy of Holies.

    Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; Hebrews 9:25

    Paul is very clear about the separation of the two veils. It never says Jesus entered through the Second Veil, and did not then need to at His 2nd Ascension, being from the Mt of Olives. We see Jesus ascending in Psa 24 and compare Rev 4 and 5 {compare to Acts 1-2 and Psa 133; Exo 29:7; Lev 8:12; also needed to be 12, Exo 28:21-22, 29:5, 39:14; then the Holy Spirit was sent - Rev 5:6}. Rev 4 speaks of the First Veil:

    After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. Revelation 4:1

    Thus John is taken in the Holy Place, the First 'Tabernacle' of Heaven, revealing the 7 lamps which sat directly across from {before} the Table of Shewbread which was Crowned, and had two stacks, representing the Throne of God in the Holy Place:

    And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. Revelation 4:5

    Revelation 3:8, in the period of the 6th Church, thousand{s} of years {1800+ yrs} later from the First Church of Ephesus, another door/veil is seen opened in Heaven, while the first was closed, and this is also witnessed in Daniel:

    And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; Revelation 3:7

    I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. Revelation 3:8

    I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. Daniel 7:13

    Take Daniel 8:13-14,26, compare to Daniel 9:25, with Ezra 6:14, 7:1-28 and Revelation 10:1-6, and the scenes of Revelation in tandem with Daniel and Hebrews, the conclusion is inescapable. The 7th Year of Artaxerxes I Longimanus./Machrocheir was in 457 BC (demonstrated – Link), go from there, 2,300. Go from there (457 BC) and count 70 weeks.

    #12 is debunked to the hilt, and all 'the dirt came out'.
     
  12. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    #13

    [Time Index: 13:34 – 14:08] Will we know the exact day and hour of Christ's coming?

    Ellen White says, “Yes.” (according to the video) and cites Early Writings, page 15,34,285:

    As God has shown me in holy vision … we heard the voice of God like many waters, which gave us the day and hour of Jesus' coming.” - (supposedly) Early Writings, pages 15,34,285

    The Bible says, “No.” (according to the video) and cites Matthew 25:13; Mark 13:32:

    Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

    Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

    There is some gross errors here.

    First of all there is no place in Early Writings (at all) that uses the phrase, “As God has shown me in holy vision ...”. That phrase only appears in these:

    [1] A Word to the Little Flock, page 14.1

    [2] The Ellen G White Letters and Manuscripts, Volume 1, page 85:4

    [3] The Ellen G White Letters and Manuscripts, Volume 1, page 101.5

    [4] The Day Star, January 24, 1846, par. 1

    [5] To the Little Remnant Scattered Abroad, April 6, 1846, par. 1

    The only phrase which is similar in Early Writings is found beginning on page 13.3 (not 15, as the video wrongly cited), “As God has shown me the travels of the Advent people to the Holy City ...” and “... I was wrapped in a vision of God's glory ...” (13.2). There is nothing on page 15 of Early Writings which even comes close. The author/narrator of the video is mistaken.

    The next phrase that the author/narrator cites is:

    “... Soon we [see Appendix.] heard the voice of God like many waters, which gave us the day and hour of Jesus’ coming ...” - Early Writings, page 15

    The author/narrator cites Early Writings, page 34 in the notation but doesn't actually quote from it in the narration:

    “... In the time of trouble we all fled from the cities and villages, but were pursued by the wicked, who entered the houses of the saints with a sword. They raised the sword to kill us, but it broke, and fell as powerless as a straw. Then we all cried day and night for deliverance, and the cry came up before God. The sun came up, and the moon stood still. The streams ceased to flow. Dark, heavy clouds came up and clashed against each other. But there was one clear place of settled glory, whence came the voice of God like many waters, which shook the heavens and the earth. The sky opened and shut and was in commotion. The mountains shook like a reed in the wind, and cast out ragged rocks all around. The sea boiled like a pot and cast out stones upon the land. And as God spoke the day and the hour of Jesus’ coming and delivered the everlasting covenant to His people, He spoke one sentence, and then paused, while the words were rolling through the earth. The Israel of God stood with their eyes fixed upward, listening to the words as they came from the mouth of Jehovah, and rolled through the earth like peals of loudest thunder. It was awfully solemn. And at the end of every sentence the saints shouted, “Glory! Alleluia!” Their countenances were lighted up with the glory of God; and they shone with the glory, as did the face of Moses when he came down from Sinai. The wicked could not look on them for the glory. And when the never-ending blessing was pronounced on those who had honored God in keeping His Sabbath holy, there was a mighty shout of victory over the beast and over his image. ...” - Early Writings, page 34.1

    The author/narrator then cites Early Writings, page 285 in the notation but doesn't actually quote from it in the narration:

    “... The sky opened and shut and was in commotion. The mountains shook like a reed in the wind and cast out ragged rocks all around. The sea boiled like a pot and cast out stones upon the land. And as God spoke the day and the hour of Jesus’ coming and delivered the everlasting covenant to His people, He spoke one sentence, and then paused, while the words were rolling through the earth. The Israel of God stood with their eyes fixed upward, listening ...” - Early Writings, page 285.2

    In all three places in Early Writings, pages 15, 34 and 285, it is “God” (the Father) that is speaking, announcing the “day and hour” of Jesus (His Son's) coming. This is exactly what the scripture says, that only the Father would make known the day and hour, even as the scripture Mark 13:32 stated.

    Jesus never said that mankind would not ever know the day and hour of His coming, but when we shall know after the close of human probation, when the Voice of God the Father speaks forth the day and hour from Heaven:
     
  13. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    #13 continued to be debunkered ...

    What if I told you, that though you cannot know the exact "time" ["season"] yet, but that you can know the events that lead up to it?

    Also, the phrase, "But of that day and hour knoweth [to make known to others, see 1 Corinthians 2:2 - For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.; which is why Jesus could say "neither the Son" [Mark 13:32], as Jesus will not make it known, but leaves it to the Father to do] no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.", as stated by Jesus, does not say, that we will never know, and Jesus would not reveal it [though He knows it], since the Father Himself, has chosen, that after the close of probation, He will speak forth the time by His own voice, as that previous quotation reveals:

    Acts 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

    We can know the events in their order:

    Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

    Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

    Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    5. Voice of God announcing the hour; Jeremiah 25:30; Joel 2:11, 3:16; Amos 1:2; Job 40:9; Psalms 18:13, 77:18, 104:7; 1 Samuel 2:10; 2 Samuel 22:14; Matthew 24:36; Mark 13:32; John 12:29; 2 Peter 1:17-18; Revelation 14:2; &c

    {Great Controversy; Page 640}

    "... The voice of God is heard from heaven, declaring the day and hour of Jesus’ coming, and delivering the everlasting covenant to His people. Like peals of loudest thunder His words roll through the earth. The Israel of God stand listening, with their eyes fixed upward. Their countenances are lighted up with His glory, and shine as did the face of Moses when he came down from Sinai. The wicked cannot look upon them. And when the blessing is pronounced on those who have honored God by keeping His Sabbath holy, there is a mighty shout of victory. ..." - The Great Controversy, page 640

    Look carefully at those texts I cited. For instance:

    Jeremiah 25:30 Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.

    Joel 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

    Joel 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

    Amos 1:2 And he said, The LORD will roar from Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the habitations of the shepherds shall mourn, and the top of Carmel shall wither.

    Job 40:9 Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?

    Psalms 18:13 The LORD also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire.

    1 Samuel 2:10 The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them: the LORD shall judge the ends of the earth; and he shall give strength unto his king, and exalt the horn of his anointed.

    2 Samuel 22:14 The LORD thundered from heaven, and the most High uttered his voice.

    John 12:28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

    John 12:29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.

    John 12:30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.

    2 Peter 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    2 Peter 1:18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

    Revelation 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

    That voice of the Father speaking, and which voice rolls through the earth like peals of loudest thunder, is what brings the greatest and final earthquake:

    Isaiah 29:6 Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.

    Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

    Revelation 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

    Matthew 25:13, Jesus is speaking directly to the disciples, then at that moment, and of course they would not then know the day and hour. It could only be announced by the Father Himself, long after Jesus ascended into Heaven.

    #13 is debunked, unlucky for the author/narrator.
     
  14. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    #14

    [Time Index: 14:11 – 14:43] Dopes God require a trespass offering before He pardons us?

    Ellen White says, “Yes.” (according to the video) and cites

    “... You cannot make every case right, for some whom you have injured have gone into their graves, and the account stands registered against you. In these cases the best you can do is to bring a trespass offering to the altar of the Lord, and He will accept and pardon you. ...” - Testimonies for the Church, Volume 5, page 339

    The Bible says, “No.” (according to the video) and cites 1 John 1:9

    1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    Here is the full contextual quotation from Testimonies, Volume 5, page 339:

    “... Zacchaeus declared: “If I have taken anything from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.” You could at least have made efforts to correct your acts of injustice to your fellow men. You cannot make every case right, for some whom you have injured have gone into their graves, and the account stands registered against you. In these cases the best you can do is to bring a trespass offering to the altar of the Lord, and He will accept and pardon you. But where you can, you should make reparation to the wronged ones. ...”- Testimonies for the Church, Volume 5, page 339

    1 John 1:9, is only in the context of asking forgiveness from God, the master of the one (servant) wronged. It doesn't speak of the necessity, as other texts do, of making reparation, so far as is possible with the 'servant', or 'brethren', etc wronged. Yes, confession to God will pardon sin, but notice the injunction of God when there was wrong against another besides God:

    Matthew 25:3 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;

    Matthew 25:4 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

    Matthew 25:5 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

    Matthew 25:6 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

    Hebrews 13:10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.

    God's word says of Him:

    Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

    Psalms 102:27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.

    Hebrews 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

    Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

    2 Samuel 12:6 And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity.

    Luke 19:8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.

    Luke 19:9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

    Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

    Philemon 1:18 If he hath wronged thee, or oweth thee ought, put that on mine account;

    Philemon 1:19 I Paul have written it with mine own hand, I will repay it: albeit I do not say to thee how thou owest unto me even thine own self besides.

    Are there “trespasses” in the NT? Yes, see Matthew 6:14-15, 18:15,35; Mark 11:25-26; Luke 17:3-4.

    There are two kinds of trespasses, [1] against God alone, [2] against a fellow servant, or another of mankind, which God owns and thus is also a trespass against God the Creator.

    The quotation of sister White is in context of the second, as she cites the case of “Zacchaeus” just before the author/narration quote. Zacchaeus had wronged his fellows. He needed to make reparation to them, as far as was possible, and to God.

    The quotation, deals with another scenario also, in that of another case of what happens if the person/s I wronged are now dead and I cannot make right with them when God's word says I ought to have? Thus comes in the scripture that a person can be forgiven of God, by making a trespass offering at the altar of God. (this is not speaking about the OT type, but the NT realities).

    Psalms 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

    That acknowledgment and sincere sorrow, may then involve 'money' (owed to the person wronged, but now is given to God), it may not. It may involve something else entirely, such as time of service, use of land, or something else entirely depending upon the situation, it may involve helping a relative of the person, it might involve taking in their child under your roof, etc.

    #14 debunked. It speaks of an absolute ignorance upon the part of the author/narrator to continue to misuse scripture (and blame Ellen White for their own failure to understand the texts or quotations) and to not even understand the basics of dealings with God and fellow beings in matters of wrongs against them.
     
  15. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    #15

    [Time Index: 14:45 – 15:35] Can the faith of believing parents save their children?

    Ellen White says, “Yes.” (according to the video) and cites Selected Messages, Volume 3, page 313

    “... I know that some [page 313-314] questioned whether the little children of even believing parents should be saved, because they have had no test of character and all must be tested and their character determined by trial. The question is asked, “How can little children have this test and trial?” I answer that the faith of the believing parents covers the children.” - Selected Messages, Volume 3, page 313

    The Bible says, “No.” (according to the video) and cites Ezekiel 18:20, 33:20:

    Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    Ezekiel 33:20 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.

    Again the author/narrator of the video doesn't know how to properly cite, and doesn't use ellipses, the full quote is:

    “... I know that some [page 313-314] questioned whether the little children of even believing parents should be saved, because they have had no test of character and all must be tested and their character determined by trial. The question is asked, “How can little children have this test and trial?” I answer that the faith of the believing parents covers the children, as when God sent His judgments upon the first-born of the Egyptians.

    The word of God came to the Israelites in bondage to gather their children into their houses and to mark the doorposts of their houses with blood from a lamb, slain. This prefigured the slaying of the Son of God and the efficacy of His blood, which was shed for the salvation of the sinner. It was a sign that the household accepted Christ as the promised Redeemer. It was shielded from the destroyer's power. The parents evidenced their faith in implicitly obeying the directions given them, and the faith of the parents covered themselves and their children. They showed their faith in Jesus, the great Sacrifice, whose blood was prefigured in the slain lamb. The destroying angel passed over every house that had this mark upon it. This is a symbol to show that the faith of the parents extends to their children and covers them from the destroying angel. ...”- Selected Messages, Volume 3, page 313-314

    The sentence didn't end at “children”, and the author/narrator needs to properly cite material to be taken seriously. There are far too many such errors in the video to excuse it, and by leaving the rest of the sentence off, hides the example give by scripture for support of the claim.

    The first-born of the Egyptians (whether child or adult) died, and this due to the faith of their parents. If they had heeded God, and accepted the blood of the Lamb and put it over the door posts, etc then they would have lived, just as the firstborn of Israel lived whether child or adult, because of the faith of the parents, since the parents are given charge over their children, as stewards of that which is Gods. Thus the 5th Commandment (Exodus 20:12).

    Another example is Noah in Genesis 6-9. Because Noah was faithful in obeying, it brought salvation to his whole family from the flood (Hebrews 11:7; 1 Peter 3:20). Afterward, when sin occurred in Noah's family, the one responsible, such as Ham unto Canaan, received the punishment, for Ham was at fault in dishonouring his father by spreading what happened to Noah instead of covering the matter and honouring his father, and thus brought a certain type of character to his own son (Canaan, and thus through his descendants).

    Notice the commandment:

    Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

    This means that the parents have much to do with their children's salvation or degredation unto perdition.

    Isaiah 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

    Consider the life of Solomon and its effect on Rehoboam, etc.

    It is also written:

    1 Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

    Notice, that the children, if there is even one believing parent, brings sanctification to the child, and is an influence for Heaven, not that it is a guarantee. Yet, we are speaking about those under-age and who do not yet know the difference between right and wrong, the “little children”.

    Deuteronomy 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

    Isaiah 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

    Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

    Ezekiel 18:20 and Ezekiel 33:20, are dealing with those who know the difference between right and wrong, not little children who know such thing, but are under their parents guardianship to make such decisions. The author/narrator has again misused the texts just to try to make Ellen White appear false, when she absolutely is in harmony with the scriptures to a “t” (cross).

    Even David said of his own child that died after birth:

    2 Samuel 12:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

    Jesus said, Suffer the little children to come unto me ...

    #15 is debunked.

    Ellen G White – 15 (and with bonus)

    Author/Narrator – a complete 0 (and how).
     
  16. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    The most hilarious (in a sad-clown sorta way) thing about this whole video post by Walter, is that Walter is a Catholic, and the video presents mostly ideas stemming from Calvinism, OSAS, which Romanism is not supposed to believe in, and teaches disobedience to God's commandments, of which Romanism is supposed to teach the keeping of God's commandments (not really though).

    It is simply amazing what one will resort to, and make bed-fellows with, just to bolster justification of self, even if it means using persons heretical theology that are contrary to ones own stated beliefs, simply because truth is not acknowledged and one has an agenda to defame another they themselves had never bothered to read in context or wholly.

    Shameful.

    Pro 18:13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.

    Pro 18:17 He that is first in his own cause seemeth just; but his neighbour cometh and searcheth him.
     
  17. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    So, back to my original challenge, Revelation 12:

    Since the OP is about "private interpretation" I gave a specific text we could look at and really see which of us (specifically) had the private interpretation, yourself (Romanism) or myself (Seventh-day Adventist).

    Well? You cannot have a better opportunity to address this point. Romanism makes a big deal from Revelation 12 and so it is not a nebulous choice of text. It is an obvious choice to determine the outcome of the OP, and all of a sudden its 'crickets' ...

    I even gave you a heads up, sneak peak and head start on what I would present - Anyone may download an entire study (full Powerpoint, free to distribute), line upon line, for Revelation 12 - here - TinyUpload.com - best file hosting solution, with no limits, totaly free

    Not lookin' good for Romanism so far if the person of the OP doesn't want to address their own topic when a specific example is called upon to decide the issue between the disputants.
     
  18. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    Six Hour Warning
    This thread will be closed sometime after 4:40 PM Pacific.
     
  19. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    Last call.
     
  20. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    This thread is closed.
     
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