Featured Protestant exclusion from RC communion

Yet that does nothing to buttress your argument. Even Catholics believe that.

WM

 

Philip didn't teach him the Catechism.
Philip had no idea of what the RCC teaches.
Philip taught salvation was through Christ the Messiah, and that he must believe in him by faith and faith alone. There were no works involved. He was saved before he was baptized. Baptism didn't save. That part is made very clear in the passage. This passage refutes RCC doctrine.

 

These early believers, for the most part, including the Albigeneses, were pacifists. They didn't bear arms which makes the crimes of the RCC all the more horrendous.

 

They didn't. From J.T. Christian's book, A History of the Baptists

 

The CCC specifically likens the circumcision of Jesus Christ to baptism in regard to SACRAMENTAL significance as a "sign" and "seal."


All these texts below have been completely and fully answered many many times and your interpretations have been exposed as perversions of the texts and contexts.

However, neither you or TS or Walter have been able to respond to Romans 4:1-11 and the evidences I have provided. TS attempted to but then fled the scene when his arguments were exposed and condemned by contextual based data.

All you are doing is pitting these scriptures against the clear and explicit EXPLANATION of ceremonial rites by Christ (Lk. 5:15-17) Peter (Acts 10:43; 1 Pet. 3:21) and Paul (Rom. 4:6-12; Heb. 10:1-4).

I would be more than happy to take these proof texts of yours on one at a time if you are up to it?

 

Hardly!

Only in the vagaries of your own mind. You do know how foolish people look when they blow their own horn in an obvious attempt to cover up their short commings don't you?

No... I am pitting them against your flawed interpretation of what you BELIEVE Christ's EXPLANATION to this is.

What you really mean is "...do you wish to waste your time arguing about something that, end the end, pits one's personal and fallible interpretation against another's personal and fallible interpretation?" Nope... I work for a living so I don't have the luxury of indulging in such an utterly futile waste of time.

But I suspect you will do it anyway, so knock yourself out.

WM

 

Why dont you ...."to use an expression that I hope you dont find offensive" come out of the closet & just be honest about it! LOL. See I dont know you personally......perhaps you married a Catholic & you think that being Catholic is the right thing to do, or perhaps your drawn to all the traditions & rituals, or perhaps your disgusted by the secularism & shallowness of your Baptist Church.....these are all reasons but I would invite you to the love & joy of being a truly radical & orthodox follower of Christ Vs being Religious.....that doesnt make any sense from a Holy Spirit Full born Regenerated Life prospective. You make your choice, but dont expect me to support anything less than what you know you can have..... & I think you know where I'm coming from brother.

 

Well... I do appreciate your honestly. But, most of the Catholics that I have met, fall into the category of the perspective that you describe. Like all churches however, there are probably many (if not a plurality) who just go through the motions making them more religious than Spirit filled. I do understand where you are comming from and I thank you for your concern.

WM

 

Allow me to rip a page from my being raised Roman Catholic. The word "Epiphany" An epiphany (from the ancient Greek ἐπιφάνεια, epiphaneia, "manifestation, striking appearance") is an experience of sudden and striking realization.

Richard Rohr, OFM commentary....." Most of us prefer ideas & words, we are afraid of any authentically new experience. Unlike the Magi, we do not tend to allow stars to divert us to a new & unknown place. Most of us stay inside our private castles & avoid such questionable adventures. Yes, we avoid death supposedly, but we also avoid birth. We miss out on the great epiphany."

....Epiphanies leave us totally out of control & they always demand that we change. We would rather have objectified religion, which leaves us potentially in control & never having to change at all.

....Religion without Epiphanies becomes digging in your heels; religion with epiphanies becomes living on your toes, ready to go wherever God manifests.

My own epiphany (I prefer to call it Regeneration) came 2 years ago now when I was saved by Gods Plan, Christs Crucifixion & the Holy Spirits revealing to me just how heinous a sinner I was for 52 years......and I was ashamed....very ashamed of the sin of unbelief. Thank Him for saving such as I who could just have easily been passed over to hell.

As Christ puts it:

Mark 12:29-30

New King James Version (NKJV)

29 Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’[a] This is the first commandment.

Again I would humbly suggest that you guys put that first then all the rest brothers will fall into place.

Blessings to all.

 

Very well said brother...and I completely agree.

WM

 

I am a Catholic but belong to very conservative end of the spectrum, I attend daily Mass which is offered in Latin in the form before the time of Vatican 2.

Transubstantiation of the bread and wine takes place at the words of consecration by a validly ordained priest...where the entire substance of the bread and wine is changed into our Lord's Body and Blood.

This being the case and I know that there could be endless arguments on this topic, a non Catholic is not permitted to receive Communion as they are not members of the RCC.

The second highlighted point is that to receive the Eucharist one needs to be confirmed. This is not the case as children after making their first communion often years berfore their confirmation. This is a varying custom from country to country. I made my first communion at the age of 8 I think, and then was confirmed at age 12 or 13.

If you wished to join the RCC here in Wanganui, you would be baptised again, as a conditional thing...again I do not want to embark on a debate with this. I am a member of the RCC not a canon lawyer.

Since Vatican 2 there have been enormous changes in the Church and IMHO not necessarily in keeping with the Magesterium of the Church.

My mother is a commited Lutheran and invited me to her Christmas Service which I attended. I was invited to partake in communion with her which I declined. It would be against my Faith to do so and hypocritical and disrespectful if I had to her church. She declined to attend Mass with me, mainly because it was around midnight and went for about 3 hours!!

I have no desire whatsoever to engage in a debate on these points, I merely state what is the case.

 

Welcome to the world of: True Baptists are not derived from the Protestant Reformation of the Catholic church. This realization can seriously change one's paradigms of church and salvation.

The Lord has had a remnant in every generation--as promised: "I will never leave you nor forsake you."

Peace,

Bro. James

 

So where does it come from then?

 

Okay so where does it come from?

SORRY... DOUBLE POST

 

Thinking Stuff told me that the RCC looked at me as a lapsed Catholic & I have the ability (guess cause I received the sacraments up to confirmation) & could easily go back :smilewinkgrin:

Why though do you go back to a pre -Vatican II Mass? Like Latin....its a dead language ....how do you understand & appreciate the service when you cant understand the words....that I cant understand. I will respect your being a Roman Catholic, even a Retro Roman Catholic ....but does it transform you, does it awaken you (those bells rung at mass are a call to "be awake") .... has the Holy Spirit shown you your sins & have you claimed them as too much for you withstand anymore? Have you looked to Christ as your Savior & have you amended your life to Gods love rather than mere duty, surrender & trust rather than mere obedience? See I would ask these questions to anyone wishing to be ordained.... so I sincerely request an answer. We are called to be the salt & the light. I know some RC who have done that....but they are very few & I believe the RC CHURCH drags down ones direction sometimes to Christ....they do this by applying Christ Plus as the means of salvation & I think you know what I mean (why else are you in a Baptist forum observing & contributing). I believe you know there are errors here in the RCC & you need to hear them. But perhaps you have ties to them & thats what they want you to believe brothers & sisters....that you MUST be part of them to have salvation. Thats wrong minded, what you have to do is (Per Jesus) give God our whole minds, our whole hearts, our whole souls & our whole strength..... then, love one another.

I only mentioned the Epiphany encounter that the Magi went through because it tells a valuable transformative story of high ranking men that bring themselves in a perilous journey. And it leads to an encounter that rearranges their lives, their self images & most likely....much much more. And what do they rearrange their lives to see....why God Incarnate! A God who is no longer dangerous, threatening or brandishing punishments, but, believe it or not, a helpless baby. Is that not humbling, especially to men who were on the top of the food chain, perhaps even kings.

God experiences invariably humbles us to the core, and makes us fall in love with God forever. And this is where we are all together as Christians.....when God humbles us. We all agree as Christians that Christ died, He has risen & He will come again.....amen.

Now Ive ofter wondered if after this trip to meet Christ....the Incarnate God, could they (the Magi) have ever gone home again? LOL, think about that awhile.

Blessings to all!

 

Well, do you suppose the truth could be a reasonable goal rather than just saying whatever it takes to win a point?

What do you suppose is the real value in a "type" or "figure"? I believe I know the true answer to that. I don't ask this question to trip you up or as a "gotcha" question but rather to see if you are really interested in having any kind of substantive discussion? Or have you simply classified me as a person who is a pest that you will treat with scorn as a pest and see no value in having any substantive discussion with at all? Just wondering.

 

There’s really no inconsistency at all…with regard to baptism, not all baptisms are valid, only the baptisms done in the Trinitarian formula and with water are considered valid…regarding communion in the RCC, the reason non-Catholics are not permitted to partake has to do with the elements themselves, being the Body and Blood of Christ and St. Paul’s warning to those who partake without discerning the Body and Blood…

But as large as most Roman Catholic Churches are, I agree with some that it’s impossible for the Clergy to really effectively protect the elements…especially when anyone can administer the elements…I’ve been to RC Mass and have seen teenagers handing out the wafers and even I was offered one by a priest and had to turn it away and ask for a blessing…

As an Orthodox Christian, our services are a tab bit different…actually, that’s an understatement…we go through great pains to protect the chalice…only our priests administer the elements and if our priests do not know you, you don’t get to partake…generally, if I’m traveling and visit another Orthodox Church, my parish priest will call the parish I’m visiting and give them a heads up that I’m visiting from out of town and normally, I’ll make a follow up phone call or catch the priest before the start of Orthros…or I’ll just abstain…There’s no “mortal sin” in the Orthodox Church if I were to miss communion…

Also, on a side note…the Fundamental Baptist Church I was a former member of had a “closed” communion to only its members…which was odd, because communion is only a remembrance or memorial meal anyway and has no spiritual effect…but still it was “closed”…lol…it was funny, because I could then go to coffee hour and eat the little wafers and drink the same grape juice that was used in their communion…imagine that…

 

May I suggest a valid reason why they practiced closed communion that fits entirely with your whole argument of protecting the ordinance from profane use.

We believe that the cup represents the blood of Christ that provides redemption for all true people of God.

However, we believe the "one bread" not only represents the literal body of Jesus Christ but also the metaphorical body of Christ which we believe is the assembly observing the supper. This is Paul's argument in 1 Cor. 5.

The Jews would prepare to observe the Passover by systematically removing all leaven from their individual homes. The father would light a candle and lead his family through the house finding and disposing of all leaven within his home. The bread used in the passover was to be "unleavened" as well.

In 1 Cor. 5 there was a member in the church at Corinth that needed to be removed by chuch discipline before they could properly "eat" the Lord's Supper which is the only "passover" for the Christian ("Christ our passover"). The "whole lump" represented the church at Corinth as a metaphorical "body of Christ" (1 Cor. 12:27). Church discipline PUBLICLY removes revealed leaven from within the church body so that the "whole lump" becomes a "new lump" cleansed from publicly known leaven in their midst. Hence, both the observing church and the observing individual have responsibility to examine themselves so not to partake of the supper unworthily.