Prove it.

Col 1:23 is pretty self explanatory Steven; I know you use the word IF almost on a daily basis, so simply ask yourself what do you mean when you use the word IF.

I promised my kids ice cream IF they behave in Church. IF it doesn’t rain, we’ll go to the game. What will happen to the project complete date IF my computer crashes?

Col 1:23 is saying that provided you continue in the faith, not shifting from the "hope" of the gospel which you heard. IF used in Holy Scripture and in every day language is conditional.

In XC
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I love the way many people throw the word faith around with no understanding of its meaning. True faith produces fruit; many here have put the cart before the horse. You cannot force out works when you really don't have real faith. If you are a Christian with no fruit, maybe you should look more at your heart and not what works you can go do. Those who have real faith will produce real fruit.

 

But that is not to say that once a man produces real fruit that he can not ever fall away. This is the contention of this thread. What we are saying here is that God will cut down those trees not bringing forth good fruit.


Luke 3:9

9And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.


Revelation 3:15-17

15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:



I really can't understand how anyone could confuse these verses:


Matthew 24:45-51 (King James Version)

45Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

HP: You cannot hardly write a sentence without OSAS as a presupposition. You are assuming without proof, begging the question, that because one has been justified that they cannot move away from the hope of the gospel.

“Hope of the gospel?!” Why do not you straighten Paul out? You claim you have absolute knowledge of your salvation and that OSAS is a fact, not a hope. Why in the world does the apostle speak of your absolute knowledge as a ‘hope??’ “Moved away from the gospel??” My goodness Amy. Are you going to tell him that he is calling God a liar, or that he is denying the Word of God, or that he is either a blasphemer or bordering it at least for denying the absolute knowledge the Holy Spirit gives absolute knowledge that cannot be turned away from? Does the apostle not know that ‘no man’ includes himself as well as all those he is addressing? “If ye continue in the faith, grounded and settled??” Dear brother Paul, do you not understand the impossibility of turning from your eternal destiny being OSAS? Do you believe your will can thwart the direct chosen election by an Omnipotent God?

HP: The point of the prison story is to show that conditions can and do apply and by no means necessitate a ‘works based’ pardon, just as salvation can and does demand that we fulfill certain conditions, and that without necessitating a works based salvation in the least. My story does not go into detail of what happens if one breaks the law after given a pardon for specific offenses. You are smart enough to figure that out without my help. Selah. Think about it. Does a pardon give anyone a blanket covering for any future infractions?

 

HP: First, this is a great thread and allows us to explore the truth from a slightly different angle. Thank you for starting it Amy. I believe your motivation is indeed worthy. We should establish and demand proof of our beliefs. :thumbs:

I should have addressed this point directly. Once sins are forgiven by God they are never to be remembered again period. God does not rescind His forgiveness for past sins, He simply does not give one a license to sin in the future with impunity. Read this verse carefully. Ro 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;” Read it again. Mark it in your Bible and set it as fronlets before your eyes. God forgives sins that are past. His blood has covered ‘sins that are past, and for those sins he continues to cover as a propitiation for those sins. Never does Scripture offer forgiveness outside of repentance and turning away from sin. Scripture never grants a blanket pardon for sins one might commit in the future.

Listen to this little word “if’ again in another passage, 1Jo 1:7 “BUT IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.“ Notice that cleansing by the blood has a “BUT IF,” a clearly set forth CONDITION placed right before the promise. We would do well to consider this carefully.

If one commits sins subsequent to forgiveness, one needs to fulfill the conditions for forgiveness just as one did when they were saved. Repent, do ones ‘first works,’ (DO YOU HEAR THAT?? “FIRST WORKS.”) and turn away from ones sins. Make for yourself a new heart. Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

 

Don't know any that believe this. And I know several thousand. If one does beleive this, they are incorrect.

One is saved by faith in the redemptive work of Christ. One is lost the same way. John 3 says that those who believe are not condemed, those who believe not are condemed, pretty simple stuff. Actually a Child can understand it. Problem is when we become adults we must complicate it so that it becomes confusing to everyone who hears. That's why so many are lost. We as a Church would rather bicker and argue about doctrine than we would do anything else. The book of Acts is filled with marvelous things the church did. Study it and see how many time they were in agreement with one another.

 

I knew the dispensationalism heresy would come out at some point. So let’s be very clear, you have just admitted to me that there are verses that show a man can lose his salvation with the caveat being that they simply don't apply to you because Christ had not died yet, is that true?

 

HP: You have some great things to say :thumbs:......but I might take a slight exception with this comment.

Some may simply desire to argue for arguments sake. IF that is ones motivation they are wrong. Just the same, that is not my motivation. We are dealing with the souls of men and doctrines and dogmas that could in the end affect ones final standing before God. We should take our duty seriously knowing this, Eze 3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

 

HP: Tell us why they do not apply to you. Prove it.

 

Nothing directed at any one person on or off the BB. More of a rant about the condition of the church. I get to preach at a lot of different churches and one common denominator is that each will state "I'm right, everyone else is wrong." If you don't agree with my take on this verse, then you just don't know your Bible. hardly anyone is willing to say that OSAS nor the opposite can be proven. Read your bible, study it, pray over it, and go where God leaves you. The people who take the other side are not ignorant heathens who never read the scripture as most of us think.

No one is saying you are saved by works, regardless of what the OSAS say. No one is saying to go off and live in sin, regardkless of what the people on my side of the debate say. We both say saved by the blood of Christ and live in obediance to God.

What if calvanist and armenians actually worked together. If you notice neither term is in the Bible.

Actually, I think I change my stance, I have been convinced that once a person is saved they are always saved. I had actually never read the Bible before and now that I have I change my beliefs entirely.

 

HP: Yes, according to Scripture.

HP: Just as Scripture states, repent, turn to Christ in faith for that cleansing, and make of yourself a new heart by turning from them in obedience to God.

HP: No, Christ does not have to be crucified each time one sins. We have had extensive threads on the atonement in the past but obviously we are overdue to start another one. Ones view of the Atonement drives one notions on the subject at hand. A false perception of what is and what is not accomplished by the Atonement will certainly affect ones understanding of many truths.
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HP: Listen to this little word “if’ again in another passage, 1Jo 1:7 “BUT IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.“ Notice that cleansing by the blood has a “BUT IF,” a clearly set forth CONDITION placed right before the promise. We would do well to consider this carefully.

HP: It clearly implies that if one does NOT walk in the light, no cleansing from sins not repented of and not forsaken, are or will be forgiven or cleansed by the blood.

HP: Not without your repentance and continued walking in the light as the verse in question clearly sets forth is a condition of that continued cleansing by the blood.
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HP: If one commits sins subsequent to forgiveness, one needs to fulfill the conditions for forgiveness just as one did when they were saved. Repent, do ones ‘first works,’ (DO YOU HEAR THAT?? “FIRST WORKS.”) and turn away from ones sins. Make for yourself a new heart. Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

HP: True in one sense and false in another. If God demands it there is a sense in which you can and are required by God to do it. God never demands an impossibility out of man. Never.

I often wonder what our children would grow up to be like if we treated them concerning sin and disobedience like some say God treats us, granting one pardon that covers all infractions of the law, once forever…. Promising to forget…..yet according to some keeps bringing up sins cast in the deepest sea of forgetfulness, just to dredge them up again to chastise us or to take away some reward on the account of them. Why do some post this great big “NO Fishing” sign where our sins are supposed to be buried, and then say God fishes there on a regular basis, as a matter of fact, every time a believer commits a new sin?? Hello Dr Timo!!:wavey:

HP: Let’ see if we can start a thread on the Atonement and explore this idea. Ones view on the Atonement again drives ones conclusions.

 

And I would also add HP that the doctrine of “Original Sin” was a motivating factor in Calvin’s development of OSAS theology.

In XC
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