According to Catholic teaching you cannot go to heaven or purgatory - if you die with mortal sin on your soul - having not been absolved from it in this life.
For example - what some of them call "mild envy" Coveting is a "venial" sin according to Catholic tradition.
Murder and worshiping false gods - a mortal sin.
http://www.followthissite.com/list-of-sins.php
They say that venial sins do not have to be confessed to your priest.
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1. These jews died in the mortal sin of idolatry -- idolatry is not a venial sin even by Catholic standards. Worshiping pagan gods is not a "small infraction" in the RCC. And will not earn the people of God - "heaven" even by Catholic standards. These are not pagans that they are trying to get "absolved" but rather - they are Jews, the people of God -- yet worshipping pagan gods!
2. Absolve from sin - is not purgatory. Rather purgatory is paying for temporal suffering owed by venial sins -- not mortal sins. The text does not say anything about purging the dead of a bad character so that while dead - and before their resurrection they can get out of purgatory and go to heaven.
3. the text says that NO BENEFIT at all would be anticipated for the dead -- were it not for the resurrection. So then no focus at all on "while dead the great benefit of getting out of purgatory and going to heaven"[/QUOTE]
Purgatory
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by herbert, May 8, 2016.
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BobRyan-
I am not sure what it is that you're getting at by quoting this Priest. As far as this excerpt from his response goes, despite the highlighting, etc. I don't see what specific point you're speaking to:
"I answer that, nothing is clearly stated in Scripture about the situation of Purgatory, nor is it possible to offer convincing arguments on this question. It is probable, however, and more in keeping with the statements of holy men and the revelations made to many, that there is a twofold place of Purgatory. One, according to the common law; and thus the place of Purgatory is situated below and in proximity to hell, so that it is the same fire which torments the damned in hell and cleanses the just in Purgatory; although the damned being lower in merit, are to be consigned to a lower place. Another place of Purgatory is according to dispensation: and thus sometimes, as we read, some are punished in various places, either that the living may learn, or that the dead may be succored, seeing that their punishment being made known to the living may be mitigated through the prayers of the Church."
There are many Catholics who are the first to admit that Scripture is not explicit in teaching Purgatory. Rather, Catholics see what we know of God's salvific work as compatible with the doctrine of Purgatory, maybe even hinted at... As I said, though, even CS Lewis went so far as to say our souls demanded Purgatory. And in contrast to what Ellen G. White suggests, saying:
"Then the way was prepared for the introduction of still another invention of paganism, which Rome named purgatory, and employed to terrify the credulous and superstitious multitudes. By this heresy is affirmed the existence of a place of torment, in which the souls of such as have not merited eternal damnation are to suffer punishment for their sins, and from which, when freed from impurity, they are admitted to heaven." (The Great Controversy 58.3)
The reality of things isn't so outrageous as she suggests. Going as far back as to appeal to Tertullian, writing from the 150s to the 240s, we find a concept known as the refrigerium interim which was, itself somewhat of a variation of the Hebrew understanding of Sheol, imagined as a place of temporary repose for souls bound for Heaven.
Ellen G. White suggests elsewhere in The Great Controversy that the Church fabricated various practices for profit's sake. To that charge, Tertullian offers the following:
"We make oblations for the deceased on the anniversary of their death... If you look in Scripture for a formal law governing these and similar practices you will find none. It is tradition that justifies them, custom that confirms them, and faith that observes them." (De corona militis 3.2-3)
The conceptual seeds, therefore, which developed into this broad and rather undeveloped concept we now refer to as Purgatory, rather than being some novel invention of the Medieval Catholic Church, are found early in the history of the Catholic Church. We don't know too much about this place, or transitory state of existence or whatever it is. What we do believe is this:
Bound for Heaven, souls may experience a “final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.” This final purification is wrought in, through, by, and according to Christ's salvific work. Period.
And though, like any doctrine, teaching, or belief, Purgatory can be used to manipulate, threaten, or otherwise mistreat believers, God is clear that those who are responsible for shepherding the flock will be judged according to their rightful stewardship of that with which they were entrusted.
And we Catholics come to accept this teaching on faith, as a work of God meant to purify us finally and prepare us for Heaven. Is this a place in which we reside for a time? Is it a place which has a temporal duration or is it only an existential transformation? We don't know.
And as Fr. Echert says "...nothing is clearly stated in Scripture about the situation in Purgatory." What we do is affirm the teaching that God finally purifies the Elect before they enter into Heaven. As Fr. Echert also says, many Christians have speculated about the conditions, location, etc. of this place we call Purgatory (if it is indeed a place at all). Some recent Catholics writers and teachers (one of whom was a Pope) have imagined it simply as an encounter with Christ which is itself purifying and cleansing... and which prepares us for our final homecoming.
And again, without something more of a direct challenge or point regarding something in the quote, I don't know exactly what it is you're getting at. But thanks for chiming in! I always enjoy your input.
Herbert -
b. The fires of hell are what are torturing the saints in purgatory.
"nothing is clearly stated in Scripture about the situation of Purgatory,
So then all the sidetracking about the Jewish apocrypha is not getting us anywhere. -
"There are many Catholics who are the first to admit that Scripture is not explicit in teaching Purgatory."
"the place of Purgatory is situated below and in proximity to hell, so that it is the same fire which torments the damned in hell ..."
And
"Bound for Heaven, souls may experience a “final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.”
------- tell it all when it comes to illustrating the problem of making stuff up in contradiction to what the Bible says on this subject. -
BobRyan-
Fr. Echert lays out the fact that we don't have explicit teaching concerning Purgatory. He also says, specifically, that his sources for these various possibilities are not Scriptural. Essentially, what he appeals to are various conjectural and uninspired ideas as to what Purgatory is about.
These references are by no means "Magisterial." They are speculative, suggestive possibilities. We have "nothing is clearly stated in Scripture about the situation of Purgatory." This statement is perfectly in line with Magisterial teaching concerning Purgatory.
Again, though, coming from a man who accepts the teachings of a 19th (and early 20th Century) American visionary as genuinely prophetic, it is hard to see where you are, in principle, taking issue with what the Church teaches concerning Purgatory. And I don't say this to change the subject, but instead, to shine the light on the failure of you or anybody else to present consistent principles to which all Christians are bound (as a matter of faith) and by which we may all come to recognize our common authority instituted by Christ concerning the question of Purgatory.
For it is my belief that the "principle" in question is the very one, holy, apostolic, and catholic Church which safeguards the Holy Scriptures and which is itself Christ's provision through which He intended to deliver His Gospel message according to the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
As far as the "making stuff up in contradiction to what the Bible says" charge is concerned:
I'd ask that if you are going to make this charge that you'd please identify specifically what "Biblical teaching" the doctrine of Purgatory contradicts.
Herbert -
Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
"According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1030, "All who die in Gods grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation, but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven."
"The Second Vatican Council, p. 63, says, "The truth has been divinely revealed that sins are followed by punishments. Gods holiness and justice inflict them. Sins must be expiated. This may be done on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and trials of this life and, above all, through death. Otherwise the expiation must be made in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments."
The heretical doctrine of purgatory is contrary to the only word of God as it ignores that Jesus sacrifice for our sin was sufficient for all of them and no more sacrifice or suffering is necessary. Hebrews 7:7
There is nothing we can do to contribute to our purity or righteousness. Ephesians 2:8-9
Jesus is the propitiation for our sins not us, not priests of any religion. I John 2:2 -
Revmitchell,
Thanks for chiming in! I do appreciate you.
You wrote:
Thanks again for chiming in. I truly appreciate the engagement.
God Bless you.
Herbert -
Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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"There are many Catholics who are the first to admit that Scripture is not explicit in teaching Purgatory."
"the place of Purgatory is situated below and in proximity to hell, so that it is the same fire which torments the damned in hell ..."
And
"Bound for Heaven, souls may experience a “final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.”
------- tells it all when it comes to illustrating the problem of making stuff up in contradiction to what the Bible says on this subject
in Christ,
Bob -
There is Christ hammering the nation-church magisterium of his day - "sola scriptura" in Mark 7:6-13
Heb 9 "it is appointed unto man ONCE to die and THEN comes the judgment" -- if the argument is to be "Condemned in the judgment means HEAVEN plus some purgatory" you will need to find that in the actual Bible.
Because that is a "different gospel" and Gal 1:6-9 condemns supposed Apostles that would dare teach "a different Gospel".
RCC makes up a story of the form "Sure Christ may have saved you from the fires of hell - but we make up a story where you get those same fires of hell on your way to heaven- even so... and only WE can get you out of them -- we can write the check against a made-up spiritual bank of excess suffering and get you out... so fear us -- do as WE say. And God being LESS inclined, less merciful than we are - may not endorse that check- so you must get us to write multiple checks for the SAME loved one - as some better insurance that God might accept one of those checks" -
Revmitchell.
a) You stated that "Anything not found in scripture is automatically controversial." And when I pointed out the fact that the statement "Anything not found in scripture is automatically controversial" was itself not found in Scripture and should thus be considered controversial, you didn't address my point. It seems that now you're attempting to hold me to that same unScriptural standard without having taken the time to explain why it is that your test for a doctrine's validity doesn't fall short of its own standard.
b) Although I often refrain from citing the various Scriptural passages upon which I base my positions, that doesn't mean that the ideas that I attempt to relay are themselves not found in Scripture either conceptually or quite explicitly. Allow me to present various Scriptural passages with which my comments are in harmony:
Consider 1st Peter 3-6, Galatians 2:20, Ephesians 2:10, 2nd Corinthians 5:17, Romans 6:4, Romans 5:17, 1st John 2:3::
"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials."
"I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."
"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come."
"We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life."
"By this we can be sure that we have come to know Him: if we keep His commandments."
I see these verses as being in harmony with everything I said.
Ultimately, the question of Purgatory doesn't challenge the Source of righteousness and purity (which is Christ) of which we are beneficiaries. The doctrine of Purgatory address God's chosen plan and method for the cleansing and purification of the human soul.
"All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven... The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned." (Catechism of the Catholic Church, Paragraphs 1030, 1031)
One way you could help us would be to, for example, explain how it is that you've come to conclude that the statement "Anything not found in scripture is automatically controversial" is itself not controversial despite the fact that it is nowhere found in Scripture.
Thanks for the continued engagement!
Herbert -
Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
If the writers of a book make no claim to have written inspired Scripture......
If Jewish writers contemporary to our Lord's time on earth do not believe the books to be Scripture....
If the Jewish Council of Jamnia (AD 79) decrees them not to be Scripture.......
If the Lord Jesus never quotes from them.......
If the Apostles never quote from them (Hebrews refers to an historical event. It does not mention its source)......
If the guy who wrote the Vulgate (Jerome), 'Pope' Gregory I and even 'Cardinal' Cajetan, writing only a few years before Trent (citations available on request) all deny that they're Scripture......
If some of the books contain palpable errors.......
Then I think it is for you to explain why you think they are Scripture. One or two of these facts might be explained away. For example, if our Lord had quoted from the Apocrypha, probably the rest wouldn't matter (though they would be very puzzling!), but when all these facts are adduced together, they make am unanswerable case. 'By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established' (2 Cor. 13:1 etc.).
The Lord Jesus and the NT writers quote from or allude to the Pentateuch, the historical books, the Psalms, the Wisdom books of the OT. They do not quote from every book, but they don't need to. -
SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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No one agrees with Catholic misrepresentation.
The bottom line is when you are in heaven your soul is in a state that no longer sins and is cleansed from sin. The means like blood of Christ, as if through fire ect. isn't the point. It merely points out between death and Heaven something happens.
Justification and being pardoned from sins doesn't save you from regeneration and actually being directed into Sainthood.
Justified and pardoned that's fine that's like getting the doctors note for your sinful misbehavior, yes you will be covered in the blood of Christ.
But here is your "problem" the blood of Christ actually heals, actually fixes what is broke. Yeah you might be scott-free by the doctor's note, but not the doctor's needle.
Heaven only has saints. There is no sinning or sinners there.
Revelation 21
27and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
So when are you going to stop sinning? You want to kick the blame on GOD. That its GOD's fault you sin. That's not going to fly in heaven.
In a blink of an eye God can press a button where everyone on earth stops sinning and is perfect completely.
God doesn't need to fool around with nothing.
God want YOU to stop sinning. he can have his robot anytime.
You either sinless and perfect now or between now and when you die. or after you die.
If you say well in heaven we still sin, then you have a case against purgatory.
If you say in heaven there is no sin then a purgatory happened. Namely at a point you stop sin. -
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Let me ask you a question, do you understand from the Scripture that those who have made a covenant with God through faith are viewed and spoken of as saints by God?
Saints are those who believe in God's Promise/Messiah. Saints have walked this earth since the beginning and still to this day. A sinner does not wait until he gets to heaven to be a saint. Sainthood is a position granted to sinners by faith through God's Grace.
Psa16:3 - "But to the saints that are in the earth, and to the excellent, in whom is all my delight"
Psa50:5 - "Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice".
My beliefs/povs are based on Scripture alone. If a preacher or a priest declares something to be a fact it must agree with Scripture or it is to be rejected. -
By the way, I've never met a Catholic who called themselves a believer, disciple, or Christian. It is always 'I'm a Catholic'.
They are just as indoctrinated and hoodwinked as the JW's and other false groups. Perhaps even moreso.
They also stand on their anathema curse pronounced on all believers outside their apostate grip.
Control. -
You are arguing over the minimum cost of entering a boxing match, in the match you still might get punched.
Steaver are you fully regenerated and without sin now? NOPE.
You will not sin in heaven, period. Why? its not because a blind eye is going to be given when you decide to sin. Jesus will heal. Therefore there is a purification, when you are taught, disciplined, chastised into holiness.
Hebrews 12
6FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES,
AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES.”
7It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? 10For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness. 11All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.
A greedy person, realizes he is justified by Jesus. That's fine, That's great. He believes and dies, still dies a greedy person.
No greedy people in heaven. He is going to be taught not to be greedy. That training for you might be a piece of cake even joy. For him it could be as bad as hell.
God is not going to say well this greedy man is in heaven, that's a joke. It wouldn't even be heaven for the guy, it would be hell.
What son is there whom his father does not discipline? Your telling us God doesn't discipline you at all.
Are you perfect now steaver? Tell me what discipline God has put on you? NOTHING?
Why do you suppose God would BOTHER disciplining if your just clean via blood of Christ?
OH NO.......if God loves you....The boot camp is coming!
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