As long as several posters to not hold people who sidetrack discussions with petty personal insults, our discussions will bring disrepute upon the ministry of Christ.
Reformed Baptists experienced more interest among many Baptists recently, but this occurred at a time when Reformed Theology itself was within a significant decline and experiencing movements from within to approach theology more biblically.
Hard to find evidence to that trend toward enlightenment on our Baptist Board.
I have yet to met a Reformed Advocate who agrees that one or more doctrines of the TULIP are flawed
Puritanism
Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by JonC, May 14, 2023.
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But TULIP isn't in question....yet. I do not see how they can modify their theory of Atonement without compromising TULIP (the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement appears to lead straight to all five points). -
"...(the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement appears to lead straight to all five points)."
Four of the five points are obviously false, easily demonstrated false by multiple passages from God's word.
Scripture describes the Lost seeking God time and time again, thus the "T" is fiction. Even Psalm 14 describes those who had sought God as a refuge.
In answer to the Question, what must we (the lost) due to work the works of God (obtain salvation) Jesus said we must believe in the One God sent. See John 6:28-29 Just one of many passages teaching God chooses believers for salvation.
And of course God desires that all people be saved, that is why Christ provided the means of salvation to everyone when He laid down His life as a ransom for all.
I could go on but it is pointless as no one every addresses the truth of these passages, only denial that they mean what they say. -
@Van . I'm not sure what you're saying above. But this gets into what I was trying to tell Jon earlier. Within groups of people, like Englishmen in the 1600's and us now, these movements have multiple factions and forming and reforming of alliances. You can't just say Puritans had their enemies the Baptists and Presbyterian because there was movement within and among these groups all along. To your question, like I said in post #8, I think it was, there were two very specific reasons I like Puritan theology. Neither involved the TULIP. The TULIP is the question because many folks did move into reformed churches because of the internet driven arguments driven I think by James White and R.C. Sproul. Since the early 2000's I have noticed more sophisticated arguments and a higher level of debate coming from non-Calvinists and Arminian theologians.
Also, the idea of penal substitution does not depend upon 5 point Calvinism in order to be true. -
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T = total spiritual inability, no capacity to seek God or trust in Christ.
U = Unconditional Election, God choose individuals before creation not based on any of their characteristics.
L = Limited Atonement, Christ provides salvation only for supposedly previously chosen elect individuals.
I = Irresistible Grace, God alters and enables the elect to seek God and trust in Christ.
P= Once saved, always saved. -
U= Unconditional election.
L= Limited atonement.
I= Irrisistable grace.
P= Perseverance of the saints.
https://www.amazon.com/Five-Points-Calvinism-Defended-Documented/dp/0875528279 -
TULIP: 5-Point Calvinism Explained
In summary:
T = total spiritual inability, no capacity to seek God or trust in Christ.
U = Unconditional Election, God chose individuals before creation not based on any of their characteristics.
L = Limited Atonement, Christ provides salvation only for supposedly previously chosen elect individuals.
I = Irresistible Grace, God alters and enables the elect to seek God and trust in Christ.
P= Once saved, always saved. -
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The idea of Penal Substitution is a Trojan Horse for Limited Atonement. It is the idea that Christ only provided for the removal of specific sins of specific people -
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Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all. You deny this basic truth. -
My view is stated, you have no expressed view except that my view is "ridiculous."
And so it goes with the defenders of falsehood.
In summary:
T = total spiritual inability, no capacity to seek God or trust in Christ.
U = Unconditional Election, God chose individuals before creation not based on any of their characteristics.
L = Limited Atonement, Christ provides salvation only for supposedly previously chosen elect individuals.
I = Irresistible Grace, God alters and enables the elect to seek God and trust in Christ.
P= Once saved, always saved.
God's word says the lost seek God.
God's word says everyone believing into Him shall not perish, but have eternal life, thus salvation is conditional.
God's word says Christ became the means of reconciliation for the whole world, all of humanity.
God's word says God credits our faith, rather than instilling righteous faith.
God's word says once saved, always saved, for we shall never perish. -
And don't bring Puritanism into your argument. I was discussing historical Puritans (the Anglican movement to reform England), not neo-Puritanism (modern Puritanism).
History is not subjective. -
I say this because the five points of Calvinism are interdependent. Penal Substitution Theory is the foundation for Calvinism (and the logic of Penal Substitution Theory leads to Calvinism by way of Limited Atonement).
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