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Question about Covenant Theology

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Humblesmith, Jun 22, 2022.

  1. Humblesmith

    Humblesmith Member

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    For those of you who follow covenant theology, just a question.......

    In Matthew 19:27-30, Peter asks Jesus what will the disciples get, seeing as how they left everything to follow Him. Jesus replies that eventually they will "sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." How does covenant theology explain this, seeing as how it claims the church replaced Israel?
     
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  2. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    The writings of the Apostles govern the Church. This is attested to, any time one makes an appeal to Scripture.
     
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  3. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    The Church did not replace Israel

    there is only 1 people of God that are the Royal Priesthood and Holy nation. See Exodus and I Peter.

    There were Non Jews in the OT who were saved: Rahab, Nineveh, Ruth etc
     
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  4. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    I do not see how this is dispensational
     
  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    The Church IS 'The Israel Of God':

    16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10

    13 But now in Christ Jesus ye that once were far off are made nigh in the blood of Christ.
    14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,
    15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace;
    16 and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
    17 and he came and preached peace to you that were far off, and peace to them that were nigh:
    18 for through him we both have our access in one Spirit unto the Father. Eph 2

    15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
    16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Gal 6
     
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  6. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    Galatians 4:26

    But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
     
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  7. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Born from above:

    26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother. Gal 4

    1 A Psalm of the sons of Korah; a Song. His foundation is in the holy mountains.
    2 Jehovah loveth the gates of Zion More than all the dwellings of Jacob.
    3 Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah
    4 I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon as among them that know me: Behold, Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia: This one was born there.
    5 Yea, of Zion it shall be said, This one and that one was born in her; And the Most High himself will establish her.
    6 Jehovah will count, when he writeth up the peoples, This one was born there. Selah
    7 They that sing as well as they that dance shall say, All my fountains are in thee. Ps 87

    7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
    8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3 YLT

    1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah.
    2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thy habitations; spare not: lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes.
    3 For thou shalt spread aboard on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall possess the nations, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.
    4 Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth; and the reproach of thy widowhood shalt thou remember no more.
    5 For thy Maker is thy husband; Jehovah of hosts is his name: and the Holy One of Israel is thy Redeemer; the God of the whole earth shall he be called. Isa 54
     
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  8. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 19:27-30

    Then Peter said in reply, “See, we have left everything and followed you. What then will we have?” Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world,when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name’s sake, will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and the last first.

    Peter reiterates that not only he and the Apostles have received this inheritance, but everyone chosen to be God's children receive this inheritance.

    1 Peter 1:3-9

    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

    This inheritance is secured precisely because it is written into the Will that Jesus wrote up (New Covenant) and secured with His death.

    Hebrews 9:15-28

    Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive. Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying, “This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you.” And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship. Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

    The whole idea of "replacement theory" is a made-up concept by ignorant dispensationalists who do not grasp that God is a covenant making God who makes covenants with particular people, some for eternity, and some with a specific end point. "It is finished."
     
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  9. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    And if its free so are we... I get tired of listening to law grace on here!... Brother Glen:)

    Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

    21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.


    Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
     
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  10. Lodic

    Lodic Well-Known Member

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    Why do you believe that those who follow Covenant Theology claim that the Church has replaced Israel? Is this something you've heard, or do you have an official source you can point to that supports this "replacement theology" view?
     
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  11. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    My thoughts are Spiritual Israel has replaced natural Israel according to scripture... Brother Glen:)

    Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

    29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
     
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  12. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    The children of the inheritance of salvation have always been from every nation, tribe, and tongue. This covenant was made with Adam, then Noah, then Abraham. None of them were a part of Israel.

    God redeemed Israel out of slavery and made a temporary covenant with the nation of Israel from which the Messiah would come. When Jesus had made atonement for the elect from every nation, tribe and tongue and established the New Covenant, God ended the temporary covenant with the nation of Israel. Jesus declared "It is finished."
    The New Covenant is eternal for all whose names have been written into the Will. They receive the inheritance.
     
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  13. Lodic

    Lodic Well-Known Member

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    In my view, it is not so much that Spiritual Israel has replaced physical Israel as that Spiritual Israel is the fulfillment of physical Israel. There has always been only one "people of God" - those of the household of faith.
     
    #13 Lodic, Jun 23, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2022
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  14. Humblesmith

    Humblesmith Member

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    What I was wondering about was when in Matthew 19:28 Jesus says that the apostles will "judge the twelve tribes of Israel" what is the covenant theologian's explanation of this? It always seemed to me that when He says judge the twelve tribes of Israel, that what He actually meant was judge the twelve tribes of Israel. It seems hard to make this mean anything else, and so would indicate that national Israel is distinct and forever existing.
     
  15. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 19:28

    Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Earlier Jesus tells the disciples that entrance to heaven is impossible without God. You cannot be saved by good works. This shocks the disciples. Peter wonders out loud, what the disciples will do.

    Here Jesus tells them that they will judge unregenerate Israel for not believing in Jesus as their Messiah. The Apostles first went to the nation of Israel (Read Acts) before they were dispersed. They gave Israel fair warning before 70CE and the destruction of Jerusalem. As Apostles, they judge Israel for it's unbelief. Here Jesus says that every tribe of Israel is judged and the Apostles are the witnesses to their unbelief and thus judge them guilty.

    The Apostles then went to the rest of the world to spread the good news.

    The term, in the verse, translated as "new world" is the same word used for regeneration. So, we can understand that upon their (the Apostles) regeneration (being made new men in Christ) they would judge Israel for its unbelief.
     
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  16. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    "The twelve tribes of Israel" is figurative of God's people of 'the regeneration, as is 'thrones' is figurative of a position of authority or power; example:

    1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are of the Dispersion, greeting. Ja 1

    9 and when they perceived the grace that was given unto me, James and Cephas and John, they who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship, that we should go unto the Gentiles, and they unto the circumcision; Gal 2

    The only two places that word 'regeneration' occurs in the scriptures:

    28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, that ye who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit on the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Mt 19

    4 But when the kindness of God our Saviour, and his love toward man, appeared,
    5 not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, Titus 3

    "The regeneration" is corporate, it is 'the building again' of the house of David [Acts of the Apostles 15:14-16], the restoration of the Kingdom [Acts of the Apostles 1:6], the building of the Church [Matthew 16:18]. This 'regeneration' came about by the preaching of the gospel [1 Corinthians 4:15] which explains the 'corporate' intention of passages such as 1 Peter 1:23. Only those 'born from above' AND washed with the gospel [John 3:5] may 'enter into' this regeneration. I disagree with the orthodox notion that 'regeneration' is synonymous with 'the birth from above'. Regeneration pertains to the corporate, the heavenly birth is personal.

    Gill:

    "...in the regeneration. This clause is so placed, that it may be read in connection with the preceding words, and be understood of the disciples following Christ in the regeneration; meaning, not the grace of regeneration, in which they could not be said, with propriety, to follow Christ; and one of them was never a partaker of it: but the new state of things, in the church of God, which was foretold, and is called the time of reformation, or setting all things right, which began upon the sealing up the law, and the prophets, and the ministry of John the Baptist, and of Christ; who both, when they began to preach, declared, that this time, which they call the kingdom of heaven, was at hand, just ushering in. Now the twelve apostles followed Christ herein: they believed, and professed him to be the Messiah; they received, what the Jews called, his new doctrine, and preached it to others; they submitted to the new ordinance of baptism, and followed Christ, and attended him wherever he went, working miracles, preaching the Gospel, and reforming the minds and manners of men. Now this new dispensation is called the regeneration, and which more manifestly took place after our Lord's resurrection, and ascension, and the pouring down of the Spirit;..."
     
    #16 kyredneck, Jun 23, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2022
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