Do you pray?
I tried to find a verse that dealt with man's sovereign free will, but I couldn't, so this will have to do.
Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.
If God is a "perfect gentleman" as you all say, then why would you pray for Him to move in someone's heart to bring them to the point of salvation? Why pray if God is powerless to change someone unless they want Him to?
Question for Arminians
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Calvibaptist, Mar 4, 2006.
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When we pray(Christians calvinists/armenians)for God to touch someones heart and bring them under conviction we are asking for God's help.
Calvinists and Armenians of different stripes are way to busy telling each other what the other thinks.
God does have a direct hand in our salvation but He chooses to give us a choice so we are not simply robots.We don't have the choice on our own it is God who gives the choice to us.It is God who convicts us of sin so we become aware of our need for Him.Now does God foreknow the choice we will make,you bet He does.Don't let this confuse you, I would know full well when my son was a child the choices he would make before he made them,yet the choices were his to make. -
Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Cannot find a verse on mans soveriegn freewill...hmmmm
Why dont you try to find one on the trinity. It cant be done. Yet we know and believe in a triune God.
Your question is more fitting for you than for anyone else. Why would you pray for God to move in someones heart if man has no choice and God is either going to or not?
The answer is found in scripture. Abraham prayed for Sodom and Gamorrah. Moses prayed for the nation of Isreal on numerous occasions. Time after time God repented of his decision as a result of prayer of a man of God that walked close to him.
Election, predestination, Gods' soveriegnty and freewill are believed by those of us that you so rudely refer to as Arminians. It takes the philosophy of man to try to seperate these doctrines and to say that Gods' soveriegnty and mans freewill cannot coexist. The factor that mixes the two is love.
Love has to include the choice of the individual or it is not love. Some say that we can love because God gave us the ability to love. And that is true. But without freewill there is no love. For love is defined by freewill.
What do you do with Adam and Eve? Did they not have freewill? Many of you good folks procalim Gods' soveriegnty in an argument against freewill but argue against eternal security. Where is Gods' soveriegnty in that?
Gods' soveriegnty and mans freewill appear to the natural and the carnal mind to be incapatable. But this is not so in Gods' world. Can it be explained? Not really. But then try to explain where God came from. He came from no where! Because there was no where to come from!
How did God make the universe out of nothing? We cannot know! Resting in the soveriegnty of God means not understanding some things but trusting him anyway. -
Oooooh that was like spitting into a fan, eh calvi?
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But what if some believe that God controls every thought and deed of man, even to the very pt of sin!? CAn man make God change His mind?
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Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
No one claims that God has left us to our own freewill. Who said that? But it is possible and true that God can be soveriegn and we can work out of our freewill. In Gods' world this is possible. Love is freewill, sin is freewill, obedience is freewill. -
According to John Calvin, God is not sovereign at all but totally in subjection to John Calvin's personal theology that he dug out of a dumpster behind a Wal-Mart store. :D
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Plan A, God created a perfect world.
Adam/Eve turned it into a "world of sin"
Plan B, Jesus, dying/resurrected to restore man to a "new world".
Question, "WHY" didn't God's "sovereign will" prevent sin from entering the world, in the first place??
Answer,
each person/Angel on the "New Earth" will have made a free will choice, in order to be there, God doesn't force a person to LOVE or HATE, as predestination dictates.
This earth is a "Wheat field" God planted and Satan tared, Jesus made it possible for every tare to be "transformed" back into wheat at harvest time, "IF" they loved/believed, after which the "field" will be burned and a new earth constructed.
The "FREE WILL CHOICE" of "LOVE" (or hate) is the reason we go through the process of Plan B, before getting back to Plan A. -
of course the "debt" was "washed away", but wouldn't it be nice to know the "day and hour" and have all your "credit card debt"... "rapture away"??? :eek: :D -
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Many people come to the Baptist Board seeking for truth—I suggest that you start posting some of it. To help you get started in your studies, I recommend a very careful reading of the following works:
Wiley, H. Orton. Christian Theology. Kansas City, MO: Beacon Hill Press, 1940. This is an excellent three volume work by a prominent Church of the Nazarene theologian.
Carter, Charles W. Carter, editor. A contemporary Wesleyan Theology: Biblical, Systematic, and Practical. Grand Rapids: Francis Asbury Press, 1983. This is an excellent two volume work contributed to by twenty-three theologians representing seven denominations of the Wesleyan persuasion.
Sanday, William, and Arthur C. Headlam. A Critical and Exegetical Commentary of The Epistle to the Romans, Fifth Edition. Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1902. This is one of the finest Arminian commentaries on Romans ever produced in the English language and it therefore remained continuously in print for more than 100 years (1898-2004).
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Craigbythesea,
It is hard enough to decide where to come out on this issue without your babbling rants. There are very thoughtful posts here and in other threads for calvinism and free will, and I appreciate them. However, your are on both sides of the issue, outside the issue, and quite frankly, it appears you have no idea what you are talking about. Maybe your energy would be better served by using that hot air to drive a wind mill so someone could at least get the benefit of electricity from your hot air. -
Much of what has given Calvin a bad name has been his followers who took the teachings further than their mentor. Ditto with Arminius. -
Sitting here studying for tomorrow, and found these two verses, and thought of this thread.
“Come now, let us reason together,”
says the Lord.
“Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient,
you will eat the best from the land;
20 but if you resist and rebel,
you will be devoured by the sword.”
For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.
Always note who is causing the action in scripture....it's very revealing. I certainly see self-caused action in 19 and 20. -
And the same God, in the same chapter, says:
Therefore the Lord, the Lord Almighty,
the Mighty One of Israel, declares:
“Ah, I will get relief from my foes
and avenge myself on my enemies.
25 I will turn my hand against you;
I will thoroughly purge away your dross
and remove all your impurities.
26 I will restore your judges as in days of old,
your counselors as at the beginning.
Afterward you will be called
the City of Righteousness,
the Faithful City.”
Again, note who is causing the action...it's very revealing. I certainly see unilatereral action from God, working out his plan in people, with no council from the people he was working on. -
You don't have to worry about, that, though, because you can decide of your own free will not to feel any temptation. After all, obedience is free will, right?
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