Question for KJV Fans
Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by InTheLight, Jan 3, 2011.
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InTheLight Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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None are so blind as those who just will not see. -
InTheLight Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Baptist4life Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I have a question for you. In the OP you stated this:
I could understand that statement if you were a new Christian or something, and just picked up a KJV to start reading it, but, I'm wondering why, if you've used and memorized the KJV of the Bible your whole life, you're having trouble understanding it NOW, after all this time? Something's funny about that to me.
BTW, your signature line looks to be from the NKJV.
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I use the KJV. I don't fault people for using other translations. Use what you want, I could care less.
I don't use the KJV because of the underlying Greek texts, or because of the books written to support it, or any of that. I use it because I think it is superior. People argue about which Greek texts better represent the originals, and that is an incredibly unfruitful argument. There is no solution since noone has ever seen an original copy of scripture. A lot of people who support the KJV try to use the TR and the MT to defend the translation and discredit the modern english translations, but they always fall short because they are using a flawed argument. Many who argue against the KJV try to use the argument that since the critical texts are older they better represent the originals, but they fail because that argument is flawed. Nobody knows what the originals said because noone alive today has seen an original copy. If you believe the bible you hold in your hands is an accurate rendering of the original text, you must do so based on faith. -
Those in the Textus Receptus camp say the Alexandrian text is corrupt because of omissions and changes in the Alexandrian manuscripts--both intentional and unintentional text omissions and text changes caused by the scribes or monks who copied the manuscripts during the dark ages. Thus, the footnotes in Bibles that list the verse as corrupt in the Alexandrian text--refer to intentional and unintentional text omissions and text changes in the Alexandrian manuscripts.
This article summarizes the types of textual variations: Causes of Textual Variation. These come from the Metzger book I suggested earlier in the thread. I know you do not want to read Metzger because he draws conclusions that do not support the Textus Receptus; however, Metzger did present the issue in a scholarly fashion.
Here is another webpage from the same website that lists several textual criticism articles from both sides of the issue.
For the record, I am not KJBO. I am just trying to help a new guy find an answer to his question. :eek:
...Bob -
InTheLight Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
As for having trouble understanding it, this is the sort of thing I'm talking about. Try these on for size:
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. [KJV]
Heb 7:18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless [NIV]
John 4:33 Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat? [KJV]
John 4:33 Then his disciples said to each other, “Could someone have brought him food?” [NIV]
Which is easier to understand?
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InTheLight Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
1 Corinthians 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, [KJV]
3 For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. [NIV]
(That verse in the KJV is a stuttering, staccato rendition. Try reading it aloud.)
Luke 14:10: But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee. [KJV]
10 But when you are invited, take the lowest place, so that when your host comes, he will say to you, ‘Friend, move up to a better place.’ Then you will be honored in the presence of all the other guests. [NIV]
(Again, read these verses aloud to get the full effect.)
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Baptist4life Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Sir, respectfully, I don't think you're being honest. I have doubt that you have used a KJV since childhood. You seem to be all about pointing out what, in your opinion, are it's hard to understand verses. I've also used the KJV since childhood, and although I agree that someone new to that version might have to take the time to understand what a verse says, anyone using it for their entire life, as you claim to have done, has long ago grown accustomed to the "wording" of the KJV and understand it completely. I had ZERO trouble understanding the verses you posted. I think you're trolling, to be honest.
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Concerning your last part, you did nothing more than prove my point. You say the oldest must surely be more accurate than a newer copy. How do you know that? How can you prove that? You can't. All you are stating is a possibility based on a theory. You don't have an original copy or an eyewitness of the original copy to compare. It is possible that you are correct but it is also possible that the older copies are less accurate than the so-called MT. Just that possibility, without the necessary evidence to render an absolute verdict, shows the fallacy of such an argument. This is why these arguments never solve anything. There is no way to prove either line of manuscripts are closer to the original copies. Again, if you believe you have a faithful rendering in your hands, you must do so by faith. -
InTheLight Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Of those verses I posted, which is easier to understand?
Also, now that I have kids I just can't see requiring them to learn 400 year old English idioms in order to understand the Bible. In short, I'm making the switchover and I wonder why others don't do so as well. I'm not trolling. -
Baptist4life Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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InTheLight Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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I use three:
NIV 1984
NRSV
KJB
I read them in that order. I carry to church whatever the preacher and Sunday School teacher use. Right now, that is the NIV 1984.
. . .
BYW, what were all those questions about the corrupt text, when you are switching because of the KJB English difficulty?
Most people in this forum are here to help. True, some are here to argue (er, discuss). But most people will help if you ask the right question.
Anyway, I hope you and your family will be happy with the change of versions.
...Bob -
InTheLight Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
For reading large segments, i.e. daily reading, I'm using the NIV Study Bible. I guess it is the 1984 edition. It was purchased in 2004 or thereabouts.
When I point out that the source manuscripts are different and depending on your point of view perhaps the KJV has added verses. (Also, there are verses and words in the modern translations that are "missing" in the KJV.)
The argument always comes down to "the Alexandrian texts are corrupt." I've never heard a compelling argument for this stance and thought someone here could give it. -
Many boards like Baptist Board just have no interest in discussing the issue. Or rather, I should say they are tired of discussing the issue.
I suggest you go to some KJVO sites that have forum topics on New Versions. You can start your own thread and I am sure the moderators and KJVO gang will give you plenty to read. Whether the argument is compelling--you will have to decide that for yourself.
Baptist 1611 / New Versions is a KJVO website that I visit from time to time to learn about the KJVO position. If you go there, I suggest you introduce yourself and explain that you want to learn why the Alexandrian manuscripts are corrupt.
Be up front and honest about the reason you have come to their website. As long as you keep the discussion in the learning mode you can avoid the stinging comments. And when the KJVO folks give you their explanation, be sure to thank them for their time.
Some KJVO folks no longer concern themselves with the underlying original language manuscripts. They maintain the KJV is divinely inspired, leapfrogging the original manuscripts. Therefore, with these folks you may not find much discussion about the corrupted text in the Alexandrian manuscripts. It just doesn't matter to them, because they now hold the position the KJV is God's Word, not the underlying manuscripts.
If you do go to the KJVO websites, please bear in mind they have been the target of 150 years of scholar research and $billions in publisher marketing campaigns. They will defend their position, as to be expected.
...Bob -
The KJV says the disciples asked if anyone brought him any food. The NIV says " Could someone have brought him food? "
MB -
The New King James is unique in that it was translation from the same body of manuscripts as the KJV using the same method of translation. It is a whole new translation indeed, but it is done as the KJV would have been done in the 1980s.
You do your brethren a disservice when you accuse them of using the KJV name only for monetary gain. -
I have as much difficulty with American language.
Cheers,
Jim -
InTheLight Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
The NIV says the same thing. Jesus says that he has food to eat that the disciples don't know about. "Could someone have brought him food?" (i.e. food they don't know about.)
Isa. 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. [KJV]
I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things. [NIV]
KJV says God creates evil. NIV more accurately translates the word as disaster. (NJKV uses calamity.)
Deut. 8:9--KJV says you can mine brass. Brass is a man-made alloy of copper and zinc and does not occur naturally.
9 A land wherein thou shalt eat bread without scarceness, thou shalt not lack any thing in it; a land whose stones are iron, and out of whose hills thou mayest dig brass. [KJV]
9 a land where bread will not be scarce and you will lack nothing; a land where the rocks are iron and you can dig copper out of the hills. [NIV]
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