In the last thread I try to answer cogently questions you have towards the Catholic church. Unfortinately, Biblicist hijacked the thread and is currently pontificating his opinions. I suspect he will do that with this thread but I suggest we and anyone else who wants an honest discussion about these topics just ignore him. I don't mind agreeing to disagree what I do mind is subversion of topic into another or simply having the conversation hijacked so someone out of context can pontificating their ideas regardless of the current topic. I will ask DHK to close the other thread.
Questions and answers with Jeremiah2911 and others
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Thinkingstuff, Nov 23, 2011.
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Thinkingstuff Active Member
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
What are the rules for responding to things said by you and others on this thread?????? -
Thinkingstuff Active Member
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I mean really, you talk about control, I think this takes the cake! -
Thinkingstuff Active Member
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
However, it is true that the title of your thread refers to question and answers with Jeremiah. However, I did not realize it was a private discussion that excluded others. If that is the case, then I will bow out and leave it to you two discuss your differences. -
Thinkingstuff Active Member
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
However, Let's begin with a representative sampling from the CCC concerning sacraments and specifically as a "sign" that God uses to instrumentally convey what is signified and see if we can agree on four statements:
1236 The proclamation of the Word of God enlightens the candidates and the assembly with the revealed truth and elicits the response of faith, WHICH IS INSEPARABLE FROM BAPTISM. Indeed Baptism is 'THE SACRAMENT OF FAITH' in a particular way, since it is the sarcramental ENTRY into the life of faith. - CCC
1234 The meaning and grace of the sacrament of Baptism are clear seen in the rites of its celebration. By following the gestures and words of this celebration with attentive participation, the faithful are initiated into the riches this sacrament signifies and actually brings about IN each newly baptized person. - CCC
774 .....The seven sacraments are the signs and instruments by which the Holy Spirit speads grace of Christ.....
775 "The Church, in Christ, is like a sacrament, a sign and instument
1084 ...The sacraments are perceptable signs (words and actions) accessible to our human nature. By the action of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit they make present efficasiously the grace that they signify
1992 ....Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith."
1997 .....by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ.....
Regardless of how you or Rome may justify the above statements, is it correct that these representative statements clearly and explicitly teach that a scrament is:
1. A visible sign (symbol)? - CCC 1084
2. The instrument by which God conveys what is signified? - CCC 1084, 1997, 1992, etc.
3. That the grace of justification and new birth are received "in" and "by" the sacrament of baptism? - CCC 1992
4. That justifying faith is inseparable from baptism which is the "sacrament of faith" and "entry into the life of faith"? - CCC 1236 -
Thinkingstuff Active Member
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I simply asked you to confirm or deny that the four conclusions matched what was explicitly stated in the representative CCC quotations.
This is not a matter of context or meaning, but a matter of proper terminology or expression of words.
For example, when the CCC says there are "seven" sacraments and I make the assertion that the CCC says there is "seven sacraments" all one needs to do is confirm or deny that my conclusion represents what is said?
So when The CCC says a sacrament is a "sign" and I respond that the CCC says a sacrament is a sign, no definition/explanation/argument needs to be made to confirm or deny that my assertion is correct concerning what the CCC explicitly states.
This simple introduction does require a genuis to answer what is clearly a matter of observation not interpretation!!!!!! You are wanting to lay down a foundation of defense even before we can agree what are the words that will need defining or defending!!!!!!! -
Thinkingstuff Active Member
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
1236 The proclamation of the Word of God enlightens the candidates and the assembly with the revealed truth and elicits the response of faith, WHICH IS INSEPARABLE FROM BAPTISM. Indeed Baptism is 'THE SACRAMENT OF FAITH' in a particular way, since it is the sarcramental ENTRY into the life of faith. - CCC
1234 The meaning and grace of the sacrament of Baptism are clear seen in the rites of its celebration. By following the gestures and words of this celebration with attentive participation, the faithful are initiated into the riches this sacrament signifies and actually brings about IN each newly baptized person. - CCC
774 .....The seven sacraments are the signs and instruments by which the Holy Spirit speads grace of Christ.....
775 "The Church, in Christ, is like a sacrament, a sign and instument
1084 ...The sacraments are perceptable signs (words and actions) accessible to our human nature. By the action of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit they make present efficasiously the grace that they signify
1992 ....Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith."
1997 .....by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ.....
Regardless of how you or Rome may justify the above statements, can you confirm or deny the following expressions are in keeping with what the above quotations explicitly say about sacraments as a sign:
1. A perceptable sign? - CCC 1084
2. The instrument by which God conveys what is signified? - CCC 1084, 1997, 1992, etc.
3. That the grace of justification and new birth are received "by" and "in" the sacrament of baptism? - CCC 1992
4. That justifying faith is inseparable from baptism which is the "sacrament of faith" and "entry into the life of faith"? - CCC 1236
If you disagree, please quote the appropriate CCC statement referenced and point out where in that quotation I have misrepresented the wording. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
What difference does it really make how Rome attempts to fill in its own meaning of the term "sign" unless it agrees with the Biblical use of the term "sign" in connection with divine ordinances???? It is not Rome's use and meaning that is important but the Biblical's use and meaning. Rome's meaning does not dictate the meaning and usage by the Bible but rather the Bible dictates whether Rome's meaning in connection with ordinances is Biblical or unBiblical. -
Thinkingstuff Active Member
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Second, the Bible uses the term "sign" in relationship with divine ordinances does it not? What it may mean by it is another issue but first let's be clear that Biblical writers have chosen to use the term "sign" to describe divine ordinances.
After we have established that, then let's define what Rome means by "sign" in connection with what it calls "sacraments" versus what the Biblical writers mean by "sign" in connection with divine ordinances.
I refuse to follow any logic that allows Rome or Baptists to redefine a Biblical term by their own SYSTEM of definitions. We may look at how Rome or Baptists define such a term according to their SYSTEM of doctrine but it is the Biblical use that approves or condemns of what Rome or Baptists define it not vice versa! -
Thinkingstuff Active Member
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
A. Point one - establish the Vatican and Bible are using the same term "sign" in connection with justification and external acts.
B. Point two - establish the Vatican's use and meaning in that connection is the same or different than the Biblical use and meaning in that same connection.
I am simply trying to logically follow A to B not B to A. -
Thinkingstuff Active Member
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Thinkingstuff Active Member
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