Hi Canadyjd,
Really good question!
Apoc 9:6 And in those days, men shall seek death and shall not find it. And they shall desire to die: and death shall fly from them.
Matt 25:46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.
Aquinas uses these two verses to show that ALL will have incorruptible bodies and they will last forever.
Here are some verses that describe the qualities of a glorified body (Wis 3:7, Matt 13:43, 1 Cor 15:42-44, Dan 12:3, Phil 3:20-21, 1 Cor 15:53, Is 40:31, Mal 4:2, Is 61:7). (The Divine Armory of Holy Scripture, Vaughan, 1894)
I don’t think these are really that great. I put this together in a hurry. If you really want to see more, go online to New Advent Website and pull up the Summa and look at the “Supplementum” (Questions 80-86) that I quote below. Aquinas is hard to read if you aren’t use to him but give it a try.
Here’s a couple of the qualities:
Just - Incorruptible (Apoc 9:6), not deformed (1 Cor 15:52), Impassible (no pain)(1 Cor 15:52 (“changed” = Impassible),
(STh., Supplementum q.86)
Wicked - Incorruptible (Apoc 9:6), not deformed (1 Cor 15:52), Passible (pain)(1 Cor 15:52) (not changed = passible)
(STh., Supplementum q.86)
Both Just and Wicked - Integrity (everything in the body will be resurrected)(Luke 21:19), Age( youthful age about 30 years old)(Eph 4:13), Stature (size - our size will be the same), Sex (the same), Animal Life (do we have to eat? No - based on Matt 22:30),
(STh., Supplementum q.81)
Rapture Question
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by LaGrange, May 21, 2022.
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1 Cor 15:51-54 I think is referring to the physical body. Everybody I know and have read believes those that are raptured are NOT going to die. This is why I started this thread. I agree with you that, because of sin, we are spiritually dead before we become a Christian.
timetofly, I have a question: You mentioned some walking around on earth after the Second Coming in an incorruptible body. Is this “earth” the same earth as now or the earth of Apoc 21? Or something else?
Thanks for your input! -
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The 2 witnesses would have permanent incorruptible physical bodies. Only when God allows Satan to kill them, will they die.
Those living in the Millennium will have permanent incorruptible physical bodies. Babies will be born with permanent incorruptible physical bodies. Yet disobedience will be dealt with by physical death and immediate removal from the Lamb's book of life. Sin will not enter the world like it did for Adam's disobedience. And no one will be allowed to physically live after disobedience. Without a sin nature, disobedience will be abnormal and considered a curse, per Isaiah 65.
John never claims those dead are cast into the LOF with body, soul, and spirit. Nor does he even call them souls. All they get is "the dead". So Revelation 20 gives us no hard information in that regards. Jesus hinted in Matthew 10:28
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
The Greeks thought one could enter the area under the earth with a body. That may be accepted by some. Also in Jesus' account of Abraham's bosom, it seemed they had bodies.
Yet a destroyed body or one in the act of destruction is not incorruptible. It would just be permanent. The glorification of the soul, is the putting on of the spirit. The spirit is an outer body like the robe of white in Revelation 6. -
Hi All,
While discussing the Rapture, why bring up Baptism?
In Posts #61 and 62 it was suggested that the Last Supper (Holy Sacrifice of the Mass) couldn’t be the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Apoc 19:9) because the Apostles weren’t born again believers until Pentecost! In post #61, Acts 1:5, Acts 11:16 and probably Acts 11:18 were used to show Baptism of the Holy Ghost was in the future at Pentecost and not through Peter’s Baptism of Cornelius. This discussion is a continuation of my comments on Acts 2:38 and Acts 10 in Posts #105 and 107. I decided to translate Acts 2:38 to prove Water Baptism saves. Why? Because it is right in the same chapter as Pentecost (Acts 2:1-15) yet points to Water Baptism for salvation.
Leapfrogging Baptism in Acts 2:38
Many try to Leapfrog Baptism in Acts 2:38 to show that by Repenting you receive remission of sins and receive the Holy Ghost. They say Baptism is just an Ordinance. If this was true then “you” would be the reason for the remission of your sins rather than Christ. It is only through the power of Christ alone that you receive remission of your sins (Heb 9:22) and receive the Holy Ghost (Aquinas, STh., III q.69 a.1 obj. 2 and reply 2). This power is in the Sacrament of Baptism. Baptism derives it’s power from the Cross through the “Water” that flowed from Christ’s side (John 19:34). Below I use the conversion of Cornelius as an example of applying the order and teaching in Acts 2:38:
To help see the Order correctly in Acts 2:38 and before using the example of Acts 10, I first use these verses:
Matt 3:1-16 Here you will see the division between the Baptism of Penance and the Baptism of the Holy Ghost:
Baptism of Penance
(Water Baptism of John - this is the “Penance” of Acts 2:38)
V1 John the Baptist comes “Preaching” (preparatory Grace)
V2 Do Penance (Repentance, Fasting, Almsgiving)
V3 Prepare ye - You are not saved yet but preparing yourself with God’s Grace (we would call Actual Grace or preparatory graces)
V4 describes Fasting and mortification (preparatory graces)
V5 went to “All” - signifying we all need to do Penance
V6 all were “Baptized” confessing their sins - this Baptism prepares you to receive the REAL Baptism which is next. Notice: They were all “confessing their sins” outwardly and NOT just confessing that they were sinners
V11 John’s Water Baptism was the Baptism of “Penance”. John proves this by saying Christ will come and baptized you with the Holy Ghost (Real Water Baptism - next few verses)
Baptism of the Holy Ghost
(Water Baptism of Christ - this is the Baptism of Acts 2:38)
V11 John promises Christ will Baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire (Real Water Baptism)
V12 remission of sins - fire burning the chaff (received through Real Water Baptism)
V14-15 John needs Christ’s Water Baptism (proves there is a difference between the two baptisms)
V16 Jesus was Baptized “with Water” and the Holy Ghost descended like a dove (This is the REAL Water Baptism) Jesus was baptized to “show us the way” - “heavens were opened” just like Christ’s side was opened and “water” flowed (John 19:34) showing that through Baptism we are saved by the cross! The Jordan River (Matt 3:6, Matt 3:13), where these baptisms took place, bordered the “Promised Land” (Josh 3:15-17) which signifies “Heaven”.
The Coversion of Cornelius (Acts 10) using Matt 3:1-16 to prove the correct interpretation of Acts 2:38:
Below I use these two terms to separate the two Baptisms in the Order in Acts 10:
Baptism of Penance - means what happened in John’s Baptism (John 3:1-11)
Baptism of Holy Ghost - means what happened in Christ’s Baptism (John 3:11-16)
Order in Acts 10:
Baptism of Penance - Cornelius offered prayers and alms (Alms = Penance = Acts 2:38 , Acts 10:2-3)
Baptism of Penance - Peter preaches (Cornelius receives Gift of Faith = Acts 10:34-44)
Baptism of Penance - Cornelius speaks in tongues (Cornelius receives Gift of Tongues -Acts 10:46)
Baptism of Holy Ghost - Peter baptizes Cornelius (Cornelius receives remission of sins and receives the Holy Ghost -Acts 2:38, Acts 10:43,47-48)
Remember that the gifts don’t save you. They are preparatory graces. They lead to salvation. Ex: The OT prophets prophecied but were not saved by prophecy.
In conclusion, this shows the Apostles were, as you would say, born again believers at the Last Supper which is the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. -
Are people during the thousand year reign walking around on earth in glorified physical bodies or is this “earth” something else? -
Genesis 2:17 is the first reference to death as declared by God to Adam. And that there was death. -
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I’ve been thinking about what you said about the Mass being “unbiblical” and that it needs to be explained. You are right in that I need to prove that it is. I don’t want to get off track from the main subject of the thread which has to do with the Rapture so I’m trying to find a way to prove it in the context of eschatology or in the light of the end times. I’m working on it because I believe the Catholic Mass is the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. It may take a little bit so I might have time to get it on here but maybe not. If not, I will start a thread on it. I haven’t forgotten about you! May God bless! -
"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:"
All early experiments with fire were unsuccessful. Thus the church resorted to water as being figurative of fire.
Except for the dark ages, when fire was once again implemented. -
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There was no death mentioned, because death did not happen until after Adam died the instant he disobeyed God. -
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It is God's Word that states Adam's death was literal death. When Adam died, that was the first death. Then Adam was physically banned from the Garden of Eden, because he was literally physically and spiritually dead. His physical life was no more incorruptible, but dead corruptible flesh.
Then Adam was cursed to till the ground, and then plants died, and had to be replanted from seed. Adam was not cursed to till the ground, and the ground was not cursed until after Adam disobeyed God. There was no death prior to Adam's disobedience. That is what Genesis 2:17 declares. -
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Until Adam eats, there is no death. Death is a condition once Adam eats, that is disobeyes God. -
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The Garden of Eden was not planted on the 6th day. The Garden was planted after the Sabbath Day, which was a Millennium. God rested for a Lord's Day. 2 Peter 3:8.
There was no death, and Satan could not rebel until after the Sabbath Day of the Lord. Many generations of humans and animal life happened in that Millennium. There were no wild plants, nor any new plants for a literal 1,000 years. There will be another Sabbath Day of the Lord after the Second Coming of Jesus as Prince. Conditions will be restored once again to like that time on earth. No more sin, and death and decay because of sin. Satan will again be bound to not interfere in human life on earth.
So the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil were not even planted until after the first 1,000 years. Only then was Adam placed in the Garden, along with those two newly planted trees. The Garden of Eden was not planted on the 6th day. When God rested it had been less than 24 hours. Humans barely had time to meet each other. God rested so many generations could establish themselves on earth. Except plants. No new trees or plants for 1,000 years.
That is what these verses declare:
"Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,"
Generations are plural, and day is singular. Time elapsed more than an earthly 24 hours. The Day of the Lord was 1,000 years to those living on earth. God let creation do what creation was designed to do for 1,000 years.
Then God planted a Garden, and history changed from that point on. No one could have eaten from the tree, thus no one knew good nor evil. No one knew what death was because Adam's disobedience caused the first death ever. Paul taught that in 1 Corinthians 15:21-22
"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
Romans 5:12-14
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."
It was only Adam's disobedience that caused Adam to die. Then God cursed the ground, and now plants would die.
"and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;"
That is when seeds became wild plants growing up called weeds. That is when plants died and had to be planted again every season. Before that no human ever tilled the ground. Genesis 2:5. The verse does not mean there were no humans around. It means no humans tilled the earth until the ground was cursed because of Adam's punishment.
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