Rapture = Second Coming?

Doing good there Prince, must complement you on your knowledge and ability to convey the truth.

 

What is this supposed to mean?

 

Prince,

Where in scripture do you find the beginning of the Day of the Lord? In other words, what, if any, events happen right around the onset of the DotL?

The reason I ask is because believers are promised deliverance from His wrath (the DotL), this means we are fair game on earth until it begins. So where do you see it beginning? Scripture please! thanks

 

The DoL is the same as the Day of Christ.
The prime reference for what happenens
early on the DoL is 2 Thessalonaians 2:3
which is being finely dissected at:
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/3/2593/9.html#000126

 

Fortunately the Lord knew you
would ask, so He already had Peter pen down
the answer for you:

2 Peter 3:10-15a (HCSB):

But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief; on that day the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, the elements will burn and be dissolved, and the earth and the works on it will be disclosed.
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, it is clear what sort of people you should be in holy conduct and godliness
12 as you wait for and earnestly desire the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be on fire and be dissolved, and the elements will melt with the heat.
13 But based on His promise, we wait for new heavens and a new earth, where righteousness will dwell.
14 Therefore, dear friends, while you wait for these things, make every effort to be found in peace without spot or blemish before Him. 15 Also, regard the patience of our Lord as [an opportunity for] salvation, ...

 

Rev. 7:9-17 telling us, multitudes of all nations either Jew or Gentiles shall be saved during Tribulation. Also, it proves us, that they already through tribulation first before the harvest(rapture) occurs. Notice Rev. 7:1 says 'four winds'. It speaks of gathering all saints from four directions of north, south, west, and east, all over the world, to gathering all together. Revelation chapter 7 is the picture of the harvest(rapture). It will be occured right after sixth seal-cosmic disturbance (Rev. 6:12-15) same with Matt. 24:29-31. Notice 'four winds' of Rev. 7:1 is also, refer with Matt. 24:31; & Mark 13:27. 'Four winds' find only three times in the New Testament. these are relate with Christ's coming for the rapture(harvest).

Revelation chapter 7 tells the same as Revelation chapter 14 about harvest.

Rev. 4:1 does not saying that the whole Church shall be called up - rapture. John, himself was called up by the angel. Rev. 4:1 does not saying Christ shall decend from heaven. Neither this verse saying about resurrection or Christ's coming either. Rev. 4:1-2 telling us, John experinced of his vision through 'revelation' while he was filled with the Spirit. He was the only one person which was called up by the angel, and to show John to see the future things. Word, 'come hither' appears three times in book of Revelation, which speak to John - Rev. 4:1; 17:1; & 21:9. These have do nothing with harvest or rapture. These are speak of call John to come, and to show him the things.

JOhn does not saying, he sees 'Church' appears up in the heaven between Revelation chapter 4 to 19.

There are so much evidences find throughout book of Revelation telling us, Christians shall always be on the earth while face persecution. They are belong to Christ's body as Bride well.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Does 2 Peter 3:10 saying, Day of the Lord is 7 years or, stretch into seven year of tribulation period?

What is the purpose of 'thief in the night'? Do you understand what 'thief in the night' talking about?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

The illogic of the pre-trib thinking is illustrated by the fact that all agree that some will refuse to obey Anti-Christ during the Tribulation and that they will head for the hills and elsewhere to hide. Some will become Christians if they were not before and will die in the time frame of the Tribulation.

Now we have another group of dead in Christ to be raised.

So we have to have another resurrection of the dead in Christ? It gets too confusing and too far from the literal words of The Holy Bible.

John says that all the dead in Christ are going to be raised when Satan is locked up for 1000 years.

Anti-Christ will be defeated both spiritually by those who refuse him and physically as he will be toppled and cut down to size and sent to the pit.

 

WOW. This one is moving fast. Got tied up on another thread and just made it back. No more time for now other than to respond to one question.

When did the Day of the Lord begin?

The Day of the Lord began no later that Acts 2 (see Joel 2 and compare with Peter’s words). IMHO I think it began with the ministry of the Lord Jesus. The Day of the Lord is a very general OT term that can sometimes be applied to anything from the incarnation to the eternal state. Certainly it is use much more narrowly at times, but often TDOL is very non-specific in reference.

The scope of TDOL must be determined contextually, in a literal grammatical historical manner.

By contrast, “Jacob’s Trouble” is a very specific referent to the Trib.

 

Jacob ain't the only one, however, to have trouble. Christian is going to have trouble too. Better head for the hills or wherever you hide. Jacob will go to Petra. Christian had better keep some cash around so that he can buy if the banking system still accepts cash then. Christian had better keep his copy of The Holy Bible at hand, too, if he wants it during the Tribulation. You will know that trouble is brewing when mankind has 3 1/2 years of peace.

 

Funny that Paul always tells the church to look for the Lord, not the Tribulation. Funny that after the Cross there are no more warnings like the ones in Matt 24 and Luke 21. Funny to me anyway, if the church was to go through THE tribulation. Kinda goes back to that old Church/Israel thing again, don't it? I think it do.

All goes back to contextual literal grammatical historical interpretation of Scripture, too.

The reformers my have rejected the soteriology of the RCC, but they carried its eschatology, hook, link, and sinker. Man, has covenant theology ever infiltrated the Baptists. I thought that was more of a Presby thing. Guess I was wrong. First time for everything! LOL.

Oh, and thanks for the kudos p-nut.

 

Ed: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THEN there will be DIFFERENCE between the Greek and the Jew during the 70th Week.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DeafPosttrib: "Where did you the idea comes from?"

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 (HCSB):
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work;
but the one now restraining will do so until he is out of the way,
8 and then the lawless one will be revealed.
The Lord Jesus will destroy him with the breath
of His mouth and will bring him to nothing with
the brightness of His coming.

Now the mystery of lawlessness is at work.
First the removal of the restrainer,
then the revelation of the lawlessness one.
Last, Master Jesus destroyes the lawlessness one.
All the gentile Christians and the Messaniac Jews are
taken out of the world by Jesus at the end of this present
dark age. Then the Tribulation period (AKA: Daniel's 70th
week). The Holy Spirit dwells in those elect saints
and departs with them and quits restraining.
There are then no saved gentiles and no saved Jews.
Those gentiles and those Jews are DIFFERENT.
All the saved gentiles and the saved JEws are one and the same
in the current Church age. All the lost gentiles and the
lost JEws are different from each other.

 

I thought that the Rapture was supposed to be secret but you speak about "the brightness of His coming". Actually 2 Corinthians 2:8 sounds a lot like Revelation 19:11, 12:

11. And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

And Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Sounds like the Rapture is simultaneous with the Second Coming.

 

Where do all the Tribulation Saints" come from?

 

Ed,
Precisely my point! ;)
These are the things that are of value to us because they tell us what we need to know in plain English what we are to be focusing on right up to the very DAY the Lord arrives at His one and only next Coming-

2 Peter 3:10-15a (HCSB):
...the Day of the Lord will come like a thief and therefore because of it we are to be ...in holy conduct and godliness

14 Therefore, dear friends, while you wait for these things, make every effort to be found in peace without spot or blemish before Him. 15 Also, regard the patience of our Lord as [an opportunity for] salvation,

But, nowhere does He say anything here about what is going to be happening 10 minutes into eternity! Our commission to Evangelize will be over with, He won't need out help with His Second Coming or with the Resurrection of the Dead (he's shown us already that He knows how to do it) We're essentially being relieved of our responsibilities. So, again, WHY do we have to keep trying to figure out every little detail of the symbolic language of Revelation if we all get raptured out BEFORE the tribulation as you say?

One more question for you Ed - but check later. I have to get the quote.

 

Yep, same 7-year-long day is simultaneous
compared to 1,000s of year long ages.

OldRegular: "I thought that the Rapture was supposed to be secret ... "

You will not find that in any of my writings. I believe
there will be more raptured than most do. I believe
maybe 400 Million of the current 2,000 Million will be raptured.
Folks will notice they are gone, even if they don't see what
happened. I think over 2,000 Million of the 8,000 Million Christians
ever will be resurrected -- People will probably notice that,
even if they don't see it happen.

OldRegular: "Actually 2 Corinthians 2:8 sounds a lot like Revelation 19:11, 12:

11. And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself."

Probably you mean 2 Thessalonians 2:8.
which in the HCSB says:
8 and then the lawless one will be revealed.
The Lord Jesus will destroy him with the breath
of His mouth and will bring him to nothing with
the brightness of His coming.

They are exactly the same thing.
But Revelation 19:11-12 does not mention any
start of the tribulation period coming to be known of
the antichrist. 2 Thessalonailns 2:8 has a
a phrase "then the lawless one will be revealed"
which refers to the start of the 70th week of Daniel.
But God knows the beginning from the end. So God tells
us in 2 Thessalonians 2:8 that from the beginning
of the Tribulation period, the antichrist is doomed
to be destroyed by our Master and Messiah: Jesus. This
distruction is foreordained even from the beginning
of the revelation of the antichrist.

BTW, your quotation of the Bible would be proper IF
you would cite the version. Unless told otherwise
I'll assume you quoted the THIRD MILLENNIUM BIBLE (TMB).

 

You overlooked what
i said: "There are then ... "
Immediately after the tribulation,
there are THEN no saved Gentiles and
no saved Jews. If a Gentile gets saved
or if a Jew gets saved, then they will
be a Tribulation saint. Revelation 20:4b
speaks of got-their-head-chopped-off
tribulation saints. I beleive that the
gentile tribulation saints will all be
stillborn: their first confession that
"Jesus is Lord" will cause their demise
at the hand of antichrist's forces.
Thus, IMHO there are no living gentile
saved persons in the tribulation period.

 

Trailblazer: "But, nowhere does He say anything here about
what is going to be happening 10 minutes into eternity!
Our commission to Evangelize will be over with, ... "

Sorry Sir, but you are wrong on many levels.

1. 10 minutes into eternity will happen 10 minues from now,
not at whatever time you are thinking of in your post.
There is no break between time and eternity
(though some shallow preachers talk like there is)
The Bible prophecies give a detailed account of things
to happen in the future.

2. We are responsible still after we leave. After the
rapture there will be people reading this and other boards
where we have spoken of Bible prophecies. Maybe some will
see these posts and find their way to God? Our responsibility
does NOT end when we die or get raptured.

 

Ed,

Ed, I sincerely pray that you are right about your pre-trib position and not having to go through the tribulation because it is the pre-tribbers whose faith in God will be shaken the most. I can imagine the despondency that is going to occur if the pre-tribbers are wrong and can't tolerate a God that will allow them to suffer trials and tribulations" as you say.

I was in Rome years ago and I walked through the catacombs where the Christians around 250 AD had to worship out of fear of persecution for their beliefs.

I also went into the Roman Colliseum and stood where the Romans sat and watched and applauded as Christians were fed to the lions to chew up and tear apart in pieces because they would not denounce their Christ.

I have, as well as many others, been through my own tribulations for my faith. In my own neighborhood I stood up and defended an individual that was being threatened and intimidated only to have that individual turn on me later on after desire to become a part of the in-crowd party group.

But, most of all, are you not forgetting what your Savior went through at the very hands of those that were his own? And we do not have our own cross to bear for Him?

His words "I will always be with you" are meant to be words of comfort for those days of trials and tribulations.

 

Ed, I would only add to my above post that you do not have a choice as to whether or not you will be going through the tribulation or not. God is the one who decides all things.