Could you please give me some scripture to back that up?
I never heard that before.
Ray Comfort vs. Hyles's method of Evangelism
Discussion in 'Fundamental Baptist Forum' started by Truth Seeker, May 13, 2007.
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One for those positionally in Christ, and another for those who are adopted?
Please show me that one in scriptures also.
I never heard of that either. -
So when Matthew (the phrase is also found in John 3 in the Aleph text) speaks of the kingdom of heaven, it is actually the kingdom of the heavens. The phrase is almost always articular and it is almost always plural. The kingdom of the heavens is the heavenly aspect of the kingdom that governs the earth where Satan and his co-horts currently rule over the earth.
One day Christ will assume the throne and we can have a part with Him in that reign. But our participation in that kingdom is not guaranteed.
Again I will PM you with some information. -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
As for "heaven" being plural, this is true, but it is only an idiom. It occurs often and in many other constructs than "Kingdom of Heaven." Linguistically, it is a mistake to make too big a deal out of it. -
And yes you are correct in that the other writers use kingdom of God, but that doesn't prove your point that I can see.
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John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
God bless. -
Whether or not the phrase is there in John 3 is immaterial, because John is talking about the same thing that Matthew and the other two gospel authors are speaking of in that context.
And yes the kingdom of the heavens and the kingdom of God are synonomous. I agree with you there. I guess I'm just not sure what your point is that you are trying to drive home. My whole point from the beginning that the gospel of the kingdom and the message of eternal salvation (gospel of grace through faith apart from works) are not the same message. One is talking about a 1,000-year period and the other is talking about the endless ages that will follow that period.
That has been my point all along, especially when discussing the topic of eternal salvation, because what most of Christendom has done is take the message of the gospel of the kingdom and merged it (mistakenly) with the gospel of grace through faith apart from works and thereby have distorted both messages. :(
For example people mistakenly use the term "soul-winning" when speaking of eternal salvation, when eternal salvation doesn't have anything to do with the soul, but with the spirit. So people should be talking about spirit-winning. Soul-winning can only happen after eternal salvation is a completed act. -
J.J.,
Common thing for us that, we all understand heaven is the place where God dwells, it is an eternality. John 14:1-3 is a beautiful passage of promise. God's house, itself have no end, it is eternality home. That is the third heaven. Of couse, we know both of the first and second heavens shall be destroyed in the future. BUT, New Jerusalem, itself have NO end, it is eternality.
John 3:16 is the gospel of our hope of salvation. "Eternal life" is the gospel and salvation.
Early Christians understood 'eternal life' is speak of salvation and gospel. None of them saying it is a temporary. If it is a temporary then we would have believed in purgatory. HUH???
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen! -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Well, this thread looks good and derailed, and I'm sorry for my part in it. And I seem to have misunderstood some of what you are trying to say, J. Jump. Sorry about that. If you want to start a thread on what you've been saying about the Gospel of the Kingdom, Heaven and all of that, it is only fair that I interact with you, as I have time. (The weekend is coming up.)
God bless. -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
God bless. -
This is one of the problems with using out of context verses to witness to people, which takes us back to the OP somewhat. We need to get back to the Biblical understanding of what eternal salvation is, so that we are not misleading people. And I don't think it done intentionally, but out of simply repeating what has been taught for many years now.
The simple message of the gospel of grace through faith apart from works is that if a person (knowing they are a sinner) believes in the substitutionary death and the shedding of Jesus Christ's blood on the cross as the Lamb of God they are saved. That's all that is required to pay the debt we owe. Death and shed blood. We aren't able to do it ourselves, but One has done it for us. If we believe in His works done on our behalf then we are saved. That is the simple message which is consistent throughout the OT and NT alike.
And when we believe that the Holy Spirit breathes life into our spirit. We are made spiritually alive so that we can understand the Spiritual Book that was given to us for the purpose of us understanding the offer that Israel rejected which is now open to all those that would believe (continual - not like believe one time for eternal salvation) and repent, for this is the gospel of the kingdom.
These are two separate messages. The gospel of grace through faith apart from works (believe in the Substitute) is for spiritually dead people (unsaved-eternally damned). The gospel of the kingdom (believe and repent) is for spiritually alive people in order to have a place in the coming kingdom of Christ. -
I've seen one of the TV presentations of "Way of the Master" on TBN and I've gone to their web-site and watched some of the video witnessing presentations. I also bought a book by Ray Comfort. He has several and I'm not sure what the name of this one is. I read it about two months ago.
Things I like about "Way of the Master":
The approach of using the law to show people their sin is powerful. When you watch Ray and Kurt do this on the tapes, you can see the unsaved people visibly wilt as they begin to understand their own sinfulness. I think this is a powerful tool for sharing the gospel. It also has the strength of keeping you off apologetics-type topics. People like to change the subject to creation, the problem of evil, etc. This approach keeps you off these dead-ends.
The "Wayof the Master IS the way of the master! Two people in the gospels approached Jesus with the question: "Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" In both instances Jesus referred them to the law to show them their sin, as both men who asked this question were actually trying to justify themself.
Reservations about "The Way of the Master"
In no way would I throw the baby out with the bathwater here, but I do have some reservations about some of the things that are taught in conjunction with this method. These reservation have to do with things that are said in the book. I don't know that I would have picked up on these just from watching the TV presentations.
First, Comfort says that he would not share the gospel with someone if, after going through the law, they do not admit that they are a sinner. He says that if they will not acknowledge the bad news (they are a sinner) then they should not hear the good news. I think this is a little unecessary. We are to preach the gospel to every one and it is the goodness of God that leads us to repentance. I think we should sow the seed of the good news even with people who are hardened. That's what the sower did in Jesus' parable. Sow the seed anyway and let God take care of their ultimate response.
Second, in the book, Comfort takes some Old Testament narratives and allegorizes them to bolster his arguments. While I admire his creativity, these passages have nothing to do with what he is talking about.
All IMHO, of course. -
Sharing the good news with someone when he won't admit that there is bad news is like casting pearls before swine. What good will it do? A person must admit that he is a sinner in order to realize his need for a savior. -
The Way of the Master was pointing people to the offer of the kingdom that He was here preaching not eternal salvation.
My question is if they can't even admit they are in need of salvation they certainly aren't going to accept the good news of the Substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God. So at best you are merely getting practice witnessing :) , which I guess could at least leave something for the Spirit to use in the future. -
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John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Today I preached for a Japanese preacher friend in another town, and an old man came to the service for the first time. He had been to a couple of Christian movie showings at the church before, but not the Sunday service. Pastor Nakajima warned me that this man didn't think he was a sinner. Before the service I talked with him for awhile and he came up with some objections to something in Is. 7 that he had read in a book. I said, "You know, these are small items that the scholars argue over. You need to concentrate on the truths of the Bible, not the details." In the message, I preached on Heaven, and afterwards he and I sat and had some green tea. He said to me with tears in his eyes, "What you said was just for me. I have been concentrating on the details and missing the truths. He didn't get saved today, but he's on the right track!
Never underestimate the workings of the Holy Spirit. Many years ago in America I was going door to door, and I witnessed to a lady who then said, "I don't want to get saved right now." I said, "I don't have to be here. After I leave, you can get on your knees before God and accept Christ as Savior." My mother visited her the next week, and lo and behold, she had done exactly that! She had gotten saved after I left! :jesus:
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