Re: Does Paul's conversion prove Calvinism's teaching on Irresistible Grace?

[Humble Disciple]

I think I understand now why James White always seem unhappy with Leighton Flowers. Dr. Flowers claims to be a former Calvinist, while repeatedly showing that he never understood Calvinism in the first place. James White is good friends with Michael Brown, an Arminian, so it's not like James White just hates Arminians.

 

[1689Dave]

I don't quite understand what you are saying. In what ways do you disagree with irresistible grace and preservation/perseverance of the saints?

Points 4&5 make faith the means of grace. But this does not fit with Points 1,2&3 that save in and of themselves. Points 4&5 should instead make regeneration the means of grace which also is in itself salvation. And faith the fruit thereof. This would include infants and those beyond the reach of the Word.

 

[Van]

What does the doctrine of "irresistible grace" mean to you, and are you aware of the Biblical passages in favor of irresistible grace?

Also, how can God's purpose of predestining the elect come to pass without irresistible grace?

There is no ambiguity as to the meaning of Irresistible Grace as there are many published definitions for the "I" of the TULIP on the internet. But the effort to question the knowledge of the opponent, rather than address the issue is the stock and trade of false teachers.

I am aware of the verses cited by Calvinists supposedly in support of the fiction, but in truth, there are no verses that actually support the fiction of irresistible grace. (Also sold under the name "Gift of Faith.")

 

[Humble Disciple]

Points 4&5 make faith the means of grace.

I think you might have it backwards. God's irresistible grace is what preserves us in the faith.

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Irresistible grace doesn't mean that God drags us to heaven against our will. Instead, God's grace changes our will to overcome our resistance.

If you are among God's elect, you might commit a serious sin or fall away from the faith, but God will intervene in your life, some way and somehow, to restore you back to right relationship with Him.

 

[Humble Disciple]

There is no ambiguity as to the meaning of Irresistible Grace as there are many published definitions for the "I" of the TULIP on the internet. But the effort to question the knowledge of the opponent, rather than address the issue is the stock and trade of false teachers.

I am aware of the verses cited by Calvinists supposedly in support of the fiction, but in truth, there are no verses that actually support the fiction of irresistible grace. (Also sold under the name "Gift of Faith.")

Do you have any reason in particular, from scripture alone, to dislike Calvinism? What is it about the doctrine of irresistible grace, from a biblical perspective, that bothers you?

There is great hope to be found in the doctrine of irresistible grace:

That the grace of salvation is irresistible is the clear teaching of the multitude of Scripture passages that speak of God efficaciously saving sinners. God does not try to save sinners, depending on their cooperation. He does not attempt to save sinners but stands helplessly by unless they at least exercise their free will.

He does not do His best to save sinners, always facing the real possibility that His best is not good enough and that the sinner may effectively resist His efforts to save him.
No, God saves sinners, sovereignly, efficaciously, irresistibly. This is the language of the Scriptures from beginning to end...

The believer's assurance depends on the truth of irresistible grace. If it is possible that God's grace can be resisted, that after God has begun his saving work in me, it is still possible that I can resist it and lose it, how can I ever be sure of my salvation? I cannot be.

The doctrine of free will and the teaching of resistible grace are cruel doctrines. They strip the child of God of the assurance of salvation. Then he must live in constant doubt and fear whether he will ever be saved. That is frightening! That is paralyzing! That is depressing!
Chapter 5 - Irresistible Grace

 

[Humble Disciple]

One thing I like about Calvinism is that you can't be a modernist Christian with a low view of scripture and still be a Calvinist.

If you don't believe that Adam was a historical person, by whom all humanity inherited sin and death, that Jesus is fully divine and fully human and offered Himself as the perfect substitute for our sin, and that He physically rose from the dead to conquer death on our behalf, then it's impossible for you to be a Calvinist.

There's no reason to look for proofs of the doctrines of Calvinism in the Bible if you don't believe the Bible is inerrant on these other basic teachings. If you believe you have the free will to reject basic Bible doctrines, then you aren't going to believe that God has elected some to salvation and not others, no matter what the text might say.

A Calvinist might say that God's eternal decree to save some and not others seems unfair, but we should believe it anyway because that's what the Bible teaches. Arminians, on the other hand, typically begin with their own idea of fairness and then read that into the text.

Most Calvinists would become Arminian if it were demonstrated that the Bible definitively proves Arminianism, whereas most Arminians wouldn't accept Calvinism, even if it were definitively proven by the Bible, because it goes against their own standard of fairness.

Anti-Calvinists are usually also ignorant of church history, that the basic doctrines of Calvinism were already taught by Augustine against Pelagius and Luther against Rome. The doctrines we know today as “Calvinism” are only called that because it was John Calvin who popularized them.

This is from Luther's 97 Theses, which he wrote before his 95 Theses:

29. The best and infallible preparation for grace and the sole disposition toward grace is the eternal election and predestination of God.
30. On the part of man, however, nothing precedes grace except indisposition and even rebellion against grace.
Contend Earnestly: Luther's 97 Theses: Disputation Against Scholastic Theology

 

[Humble Disciple]

This is Augustine on Romans 9:

If election is by foreknowledge, and God foreknew Jacob's faith, how do you prove that he did not elect him for his works? Neither Jacob nor Esau had believed, because they were not yet born and had as yet done neither good nor evil. But God foresaw that Jacob would believe? He could equally well have foreseen that he would do good works. So just as one says he was elected because God foreknew that he was going to believe, another might say that it was rather because of the good works he was to perform, since God foreknew them equally well… If the reason for its not being of works was that they were not yet born, that applies also to faith; for before they were born they had neither faith nor works. The apostle, therefore, did not want us to understand that it was because of God's foreknowledge that the younger was elected to be served by the elder.
https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/unconditional_baugh.html

 

[37818]

The gospel means good news.
Well, the person of stony groud, "They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away." Luke 8:13 (Matthew 13:20-21).
Then there are those who refuse to hear.
Acts of the Apostles 7:51, "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."
And Hebrews 10:28-29, "He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"
So no, God's grace is not irresistable to everyone.

 

[Humble Disciple]

Irresistible grace doesn't mean that God's elect will never resist God's grace.

It means that God's grace is ultimately powerful enough and faithful enough to overcome our resistance.

There are numerous passages of scripture which support the doctrine of irresistible grace.

 

[Van]

Do you have any reason in particular, from scripture alone, to dislike Calvinism? What is it about the doctrine of irresistible grace, from a biblical perspective, that bothers you?

There is great hope to be found in the doctrine of irresistible grace:

As you should know, Calvinism's TULand I are not biblical perspectives.

Why did you not provide a definition for Irresistible Grace? Answer, you know it cannot be supported from scripture.

Why is it hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom? No answer will be forthcoming...
Luke 18:24 And Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God! If compelled by irresistible grace, the difficulty would be the same for everyone despite their circumstances, i.e. non-existent.

 

[Humble Disciple]

Here are quotations from the early church fathers supporting the five points of Calvinism, most of whom from before the time of Augustine:
https://www.apuritansmind.com/arminianism/calvinism-in-the-early-church-the-doctrines-of-grace-taught-by-the-early-church-fathers/

Here are passages from the Bible supporting the five points of Calvinism:
https://www.gotquestions.org/calvinism.html

Why is it hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom? No answer will be forthcoming...
Luke 18:24 And Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God!

The story of the rich young ruler demonstrates the doctrine of irresistible grace, so thank you for mentioning it.

Matthew 19:25-26
25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”
26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Here are some more passages supporting the doctrine of irresistible grace:

Matthew 11:27
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

John 6:37
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

The same word translated “draw” in John 6:44 is found in Acts 16:19 and James 2:6 where the apostolic authors speak of someone being “dragged” somewhere. Though the elect may try at first to resist God’s drawing, He drags us, against our fallen wills, to Jesus. God overcomes our natural enmity toward Himself and guarantees that His elect people will choose to follow Christ.
Man's Radical Fallenness

Other verses where irresistible grace can be seen include 2 Corinthians 4:1-6; Acts 13:48; Acts 16:14 and Romans 8:30. In 2 Corinthians 4:1-6, after explaining why some people do not believe the gospel (it is veiled to them and their minds have been blinded toward it), Paul writes, “For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ” (2 Corinthians 4:6). The God who said, “Let there be light” (Genesis 1:3) is the same God who gives the light of salvation to those He chooses, and the result is just as sure. The same truth is seen in a different way in Acts 13:48. Here it is said that “as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.” God saves those He chooses to save; therefore, His saving grace is always effective or efficacious. In Acts 16:14, we have another example of God’s irresistible grace in action. The Lord opened the heart of Lydia “to respond the things spoken of by Paul.” Finally you have what is called the “golden chain of redemption” in Romans 8:29-30. Here we see that everyone God calls to salvation (the inward call) will be saved (justified).
Irresistible Grace - is it biblical? | GotQuestions.org

 

[tyndale1946]

One thing I like about Calvinism is that you can't be a modernist Christian with a low view of scripture and still be a Calvinist.

If you don't believe that Adam was a historical person, by whom all humanity inherited sin and death, that Jesus is fully divine and fully human and offered Himself as the perfect substitute for our sin, and that He physically rose from the dead to conquer death on our behalf, then it's impossible for you to be a Calvinist.

There's no reason to look for proofs of the doctrines of Calvinism in the Bible if you don't believe the Bible is inerrant on these other basic teachings. If you believe you have the free will to reject basic Bible doctrines, then you aren't going to believe that God has elected some to salvation and not others, no matter what the text might say.

A Calvinist might say that God's eternal decree to save some and not others seems unfair, but we should believe it anyway because that's what the Bible teaches. Arminians, on the other hand, typically begin with their own idea of fairness and then read that into the text.

Most Calvinists would become Arminian if it were demonstrated that the Bible definitely proves Arminianism, whereas most Arminians wouldn't accept Calvinism, even if it were definitively proven by the Bible, because it goes against their own standard of fairness.

First of all Humble Disciple if I haven't said it yet welcome to the BB... If it wasn't for irresistible grace, how could God save a man?... The man doesn't quicken himself, he is dead!... So you are telling me that a dead man can come to God?... Yeah Lazarus walked out of the tomb on his own?... The same voice that brought Lazarus from the tomb is the same voice that quickens every child of God, that comes into the world... No man births himself!... If you can show me one that did in the natural world, then I will believe it is possible in the spiritual... I'm not one to give my opinion on here, so lets anchor this post with scripture

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:

2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Each and every child of God is quickened the same way, by the Holy Spirit alone!

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

This is in relation to the quickening and it is talking about the same event, being born again (regeneration) and I can hear some on here saying no its not... Then you are saying there are more resurrections, then Jesus Christ being resurrected and us?

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Irresistible grace!... Don't leave earth without it because you will NEVER get in Heavens doors singing I did it my way... Brother Glen

 

[Humble Disciple]

There is nothing unfair about predestination. No one who desires to be saved will be turned away. (John 6:37) If you care about your salvation, that’s a sign you are among God’s elect.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

In this video, Dr. Flowers claims that Calvinism is bad, because it might be discouraging to addicts and others who've suffered from rejection in life. I would contend that the opposite is true.

If you've been rejected your whole life, it should be refreshing to learn that God has unconditionally elected you, from before the world began, unto salvation, regardless of any merit on your part, not even the free-willed effort to believe or not believe.

It should be refreshing to learn that, as a member of God's elect, He will never give up on you, no matter how much you stumble in life, and will safely lead you to ultimate salvation.

In another video, Dr. Flowers says that if you are an addict, Calvinism doesn't give you any incentive to take personal responsibility over your addiction. The reality is that a good Calvinist struggling with addiction would ask for God's grace to help him, just as members of AA and NA do.

Also, even if we have no free will in matters of salvation, that doesn't mean we don't have any free will over our addictions. How many Calvinists refuse to do anything to improve their own lives, out of a belief that God is sovereign over everything they do?

Have you read, “The Marrow of Modern Divinity?” If not, I suggest you study it through Dr. Sinclair Ferguson who is both a degreed Doctor, a teacher and an expositor. He is also a Presbyterian.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

First of all Humble Disciple if I haven't said it yet welcome to the BB... If it wasn't for irresistible grace, how could God save a man?... The man doesn't quicken himself, he is dead!... So you are telling me that a dead man can come to God?... Yeah Lazarus walked out of the tomb on his own?... The same voice that brought Lazarus from the tomb is the same voice that quickens every child of God, that comes into the world... No man births himself!... If you can show me one that did in the natural world, then I will believe it is possible in the spiritual... I'm not one to give my opinion on here, so lets anchor this post with scripture

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:

2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Each and every child of God is quickened the same way, by the Holy Spirit alone!

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

This is in relation to the quickening and it is talking about the same event, being born again (regeneration) and I can hear some on here saying no its not... Then you are saying there are more resurrections, then Jesus Christ being resurrected and us?

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Irresistible grace!... Don't leave earth without it because you will NEVER get in Heavens doors singing I did it my way... Brother Glen

I woke up this morning clearly visualizing a snake form of sin, winding it’s coils around people, coercing them to question scripture thus sowing discontent and dissent among the brethren. Gotta stay in the word!

PS: Pam and I are going to be grandparents for the first time. God is good!!!

 

[1689Dave]

I think you might have it backwards. God's irresistible grace is what preserves us in the faith.





Irresistible grace doesn't mean that God drags us to heaven against our will. Instead, God's grace changes our will to overcome our resistance.

If you are among God's elect, you might commit a serious sin or fall away from the faith, but God will intervene in your life, some way and somehow, to restore you back to right relationship with Him.

It places emphasis on being forced to persevere ("irresistible" salvation by works) instead of persevering because it is the nature of the new birth to do good works and persevere in them.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

In this video, Dr. Flowers claims that Calvinism is bad, because it might be discouraging to addicts and others who've suffered from rejection in life. I would contend that the opposite is true.

If you've been rejected your whole life, it should be refreshing to learn that God has unconditionally elected you, from before the world began, unto salvation, regardless of any merit on your part, not even the free-willed effort to believe or not believe.

It should be refreshing to learn that, as a member of God's elect, He will never give up on you, no matter how much you stumble in life, and will safely lead you to ultimate salvation.

In another video, Dr. Flowers says that if you are an addict, Calvinism doesn't give you any incentive to take personal responsibility over your addiction. The reality is that a good Calvinist struggling with addiction would ask for God's grace to help him, just as members of AA and NA do.

Also, even if we have no free will in matters of salvation, that doesn't mean we don't have any free will over our addictions. How many Calvinists refuse to do anything to improve their own lives, out of a belief that God is sovereign over everything they do?

Have you read, “The Marrow of Modern Divinity?” If not, I suggest you study it through Dr. Sinclair Ferguson who is both a degrees Doctor, a teacher and an expositor. He is also a Presbyterian.

 

[kyredneck]

Irresistible grace

Irresistible grace

 

[Van]

Van said: ↑
Why is it hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom? No answer will be forthcoming...
Luke 18:24 And Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God!

HD said: The story of the rich young ruler demonstrates the doctrine of irresistible grace, so thank you for mentioning it.

Did anyone see this in the edited citation: If compelled by irresistible grace, the difficulty would be the same for everyone despite their circumstances, i.e. non-existent.

So we have yet another person pushing the false doctrine of Calvinism by evading actual discussion of its obvious non-biblical nature. There are no verses that actually support the TULI of Calvinism, only vague or ambiguous verses where Calvinism must be read into the text.

 

[AustinC]

Did anyone see this in the edited citation: If compelled by irresistible grace, the difficulty would be the same for everyone despite their circumstances, i.e. non-existent.

So we have yet another person pushing the false doctrine of Calvinism by evading actual discussion of its obvious non-biblical nature. There are no verses that actually support the TULI of Calvinism, only vague or ambiguous verses where Calvinism must be read into the text.

Sigh...you have had passage after passage shared with you and in each case you look for a loophole so you can deny. At this point, I must simply ignore you. Believe whatever you wish, Van. If you believe you can resist God's grace then perhaps you can show us a lifelong personal demonstration which will prove your point...