Reformed Altar Calls?

[gb93433]

No, you're right, I've never had to persuade them, they knew God chose them.

However, I've had some in the past that made "a decision" or "chose" that needed some serious counsel and assurance prior to my understanding of Sovereign Grace.

I have seen too many times in churches that they do what a friend of mine once said, They let them flop around like a fish om a rock."

In addition, we assure our folks by the NT and the NT epistles, while making them aware God has chosen them, which is why they were drawn, and show them how they are elected in God. These folks are grounded in the truth. As a matter of fact, we've had none who are grounded this way who needed extra assurance. By the way, they love to share their faith, sorry about your desert situation and the halt in sharing their faith among you.

It was not my desert situation but some I have helped get past the nonsense they heard. I came across a young man in a Bible study I led and made the comment that the way you measure spirituality is by relationship. Nobody has to tell me if I have a good relationship with God or not. I know. Relationship cannot be measured and boasted about. It can only be enjoyed. If spirituality is measured by climbing rungs on a ladder then it can be measured and boasted about.

 

[preacher4truth]

I don't think you'll find complete unanimity among Reformed folks about altar calls. Nor will you find consistence among Non-Reformed, either.

I've had pastors both Cal and Non-Cal. All the non-Cals pastors gave invitations. Both the Cal pastors gave invitations, but not in every service.

The difference was in the method. The Cals rarely made appeals. It was more like, "if the Holy Spirit is dealing with you, or if you desire to join our fellowship, we give you an opportunity to respond publicly."

There might be one verse of a hymn, and if there was no response, that was it.

The non-Cals methodology was pretty much typical of most Baptist churches I'm familiar with. Some were gentle appeals, but some were pretty hard sell.

And, unfortunately there were a few I'll-do-anything-say-anything-try-any-trick-to-get-somebody-in-the-service-to-move.

Interestingly enough, I learned during a mission trip to Romania, that Romanian Baptists, though non-Calvinist, never did invitations.

The pastor explained to me, "we have come to believe that it's not necessary to create an atmosphere in which the Holy Spirit can work. When the Spirit is working, we do not have to beg. They will come to us."

I'd say that whichever method we use, God will still accomplish His purpose and all of His will be saved.

 

[gb93433]

My husband and I have spoken about this a lot and we don't believe alter calls are good - especially how they have been practiced as we've seen. What we've seen is the emotional plea, the "Just As I Am" or other similar hymn played over and over again in the background, the "God is calling you!! You feel Him. Just stand up and walk forward to be saved!" sort of thing. All the heads bowed...but everyone peeking - the whole set-up. We don't like it. Instead, at the end of the message, my husband will usually say something along the lines of "If you have heard something in today's message that makes you want to ask more or if you feel God calling you today and just don't know how to respond to Him, come to me after the service and we'll talk. I'll be here for as long as you need." No need for emotional manipulation. God takes care of the encouragement. We just catch the fish.

I agree that there is often a lot of nonsense associated with altar calls. I like what you are doing. That is what I did too.

I always tied the sermon to the invitation at the end for prayer and any way we could help them. The problem was that the music leader told me that it was hard to tell when the invitation began.

I will never forget the time when a young lady whose mom came to church and she heard what I did. I heard later how her mom felt cared for by the care she saw demonstrated to the people who were in need. The mom was not a believer. During that time a lady came forward and asked for prayer because she was not sure how much more time her brother had to live.

Another time I was asked to speak at a church. Two hours before the service I felt compelled to change the sermon. I told my wife that I did not know why and struggled with making the change. I gave the sermon and only one person came forward. It was a lady who asked for prayer. What she said I have never forgotten. She said that her cousin had just been murdered. I knew why God had me change the sermon. The passage and what I said clear to the end fit perfectly. As we announced her prayer request you could have heard a pin drop and not one person made a noise or left the building. We prayed together for her. After the prayer there were people around her for a long time. Those are precious moments to show great care for people who are badly hurting.

Another time I preached at a church I was not pastoring and the chairman of the deacons came forward. He told me that he wanted to say something to the congregation and so I gave him the floor. I had no idea what he wanted to say. He apologized to the church for something he said years earlier to someone who was a young man then. Afterward he went to see that man at his home. That young man was now married and had children. I saw the man in church that night. The pastor told me that he had not been in church since the deacon said what he did to him but he has been coming since.

 

[preacher4truth]

I have seen too many times in churches that they do what a friend of mine once said, They let them flop around like a fish om a rock."

It was not my desert situation but some I have helped get past the nonsense they heard. I came across a young man in a Bible study I led and made the comment that the way you measure spirituality is by relationship. Nobody has to tell me if I have a good relationship with God or not. I know. Relationship cannot be measured and boasted about. It can only be enjoyed. If spirituality is measured by climbing rungs on a ladder then it can be measured and boasted about.

Sounds like you have everything under control while maintaining a calumniatory eye upon other churches who aren't up to parr with you.

 

[Tom Butler]

I'd say that whichever method we use, God will still accomplish His purpose and all of His will be saved.

I agree with you.

But this begs a question. If that's true, why do we have to use any method at all?

 

[saturneptune]

The altar call is a marvelous way to end a service. If you all had attended 25 years of services where a sermon ended that way light years above everyone's head, had a short closing hymn, and then the words "you are dismissed," you might have a different view of the way Baptist Churches end the service. The call has its problems, going up with a friend, going up because of a good speaker, choosing instead of chosen, etc, but it is better than a cold, stoic service Sunday after Sunday. I am as much a believer in God's sovereignty as anyone here, and using reform doctrine to get rid of the altar call makes no sense to me. It is a way for people to express themselves. It gives them a chance to talk to a pastor, pray, join the church, confess, and talk to the Lord. Why should an altar call be stopped because of a doctirne we happen to believe in when we are in the minority. There is no way I am going back to a service that ends with a parade of robots exiting the church. Combine that with elder rule, and you have a country club type social status club, which has nothing in common with a New Testement church.

 

[gb93433]

Sounds like you have everything under control while maintaining a calumniatory eye upon other churches who aren't up to parr with you.

Each time they were individuals misled by another friend or someone they knew who listened to someone else without question. They were not churches.

 

[Iconoclast]

P4T

As a confessional church we give new persons a copy of the 1689 confession of faith. We let them know that the bible is our only rule of faith and practice,
But we use the confession so they can examine what we hold to as a local assembly.
If the person has any questions about the confession they are encouraged to discuss them and question what ever they want.[ I have some parts that I call into question,...
We want to know that the person holds to the basics....new birth ,repentance, faith, return of Jesus, heaven , hell,etc... The biblical Jesus, the gospel...according to the scripture..1cor 15;1-4
There is a shorter "church covenant" which is a standard document..saying what is expected of new members...attendance, prayer for each other,etc.
We have no altar call as it is unscriptural. The message and word preached is the gospel call being put forth...sinners are urged to repent and believe the gospel...during the message.
Any pastor who sees visitors come into the assembly is always wise to speak about the saving grace of God ....no matter what portion of the word is being preached.
When the Spirit of God is present and drawing a sinner effectually.....that persons heart will welcome the word isa 55.....
he does not have to walk to the front or raise his hand...or do cartwheels down the aisle....or listen to just as I am 14 times ...yes with every eye closed....is there someone who wants to raise their hand..yes I see that hand....is there anyone who wants to "rededicate their life"...because the first dedication did not take root??/

If someone went through this.....and God saved him despite it...we can rejoice.....Thank The Lord He is Sovereign.
God uses even some false ministers and ministries to get someone in the word......but then the Spirit goes to work ......he was working all along in the unseen realm.......

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I abhor alter calls & would not go to any reformed church that does it....False, Manipulative & smacks of Finnyism. Let the Non Calvinists do what they want....But DO NOT bring this into any Reformed worship. Next you will be speaking in tongues.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

P4T

As a confessional church we give new persons a copy of the 1689 confession of faith. We let them know that the bible is our only rule of faith and practice,
But we use the confession so they can examine what we hold to as a local assembly.
If the person has any questions about the confession they are encouraged to discuss them and question what ever they want.[ I have some parts that I call into question,...
We want to know that the person holds to the basics....new birth ,repentance, faith, return of Jesus, heaven , hell,etc... The biblical Jesus, the gospel...according to the scripture..1cor 15;1-4
There is a shorter "church covenant" which is a standard document..saying what is expected of new members...attendance, prayer for each other,etc.
We have no altar call as it is unscriptural. The message and word preached is the gospel call being put forth...sinners are urged to repent and believe the gospel...during the message.
Any pastor who sees visitors come into the assembly is always wise to speak about the saving grace of God ....no matter what portion of the word is being preached.
When the Spirit of God is present and drawing a sinner effectually.....that persons heart will welcome the word isa 55.....
he does not have to walk to the front or raise his hand...or do cartwheels down the aisle....or listen to just as I am 14 times ...yes with every eye closed....is there someone who wants to raise their hand..yes I see that hand....is there anyone who wants to "rededicate their life"...because the first dedication did not take root??/

If someone went through this.....and God saved him despite it...we can rejoice.....Thank The Lord He is Sovereign.
God uses even some false ministers and ministries to get someone in the word......but then the Spirit goes to work ......he was working all along in the unseen realm.......

Brother Icono....you know this is an issue for those....er, I will say blended churches that avoid conflict like Heaven Forbid teaching Doctrines of Grace so as not to upset the Non Cals but set up the alter call to have a pleasant end to the service. :tongue3::tongue3::tongue3:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The altar call is a marvelous way to end a service. If you all had attended 25 years of services where a sermon ended that way light years above everyone's head, had a short closing hymn, and then the words "you are dismissed," you might have a different view of the way Baptist Churches end the service. The call has its problems, going up with a friend, going up because of a good speaker, choosing instead of chosen, etc, but it is better than a cold, stoic service Sunday after Sunday. I am as much a believer in God's sovereignty as anyone here, and using reform doctrine to get rid of the altar call makes no sense to me. It is a way for people to express themselves. It gives them a chance to talk to a pastor, pray, join the church, confess, and talk to the Lord. Why should an altar call be stopped because of a doctirne we happen to believe in when we are in the minority. There is no way I am going back to a service that ends with a parade of robots exiting the church. Combine that with elder rule, and you have a country club type social status club, which has nothing in common with a New Testement church.

Whats your pastor say when you want to learn more about DOG? Lets say you want your Children & Grandkids to be taught Reformed Theology?

 

[preacher4truth]

Each time they were individuals misled by another friend or someone they knew who listened to someone else without question. They were not churches.

Oh? Your statement denies what you're saying above:

I have seen too many times in churches that they do what a friend of mine once said, They let them flop around like a fish om a rock."

 

[saturneptune]

Whats your pastor say when you want to learn more about DOG? Lets say you want your Children & Grandkids to be taught Reformed Theology?

The reference I was making to attending services for 25 years was growing up and a young adult in the Presbyterian Church. Our present pastor's sermons are based around the Gospel, reaching the lost, in the morning service, and living a Christian life in the evening. Docrtines of Grace are not a big item of discussion, and I being in a distinict minority do not go up and down the church halls looking for a debate. I sometimes discuss it with others in our church who believe that way as brother Tom. As far as my kids and grandkids, I did teach them the DOG. The grandkids, thats their parents responsibility, when they have their own. I appreciate the use of the term doctrines of grace, as the Biblical teaching is way too precious to be attached to a name like Calvin.

 

[saturneptune]

Brother Icono....you know this is an issue for those....er, I will say blended churches that avoid conflict like Heaven Forbid teaching Doctrines of Grace so as not to upset the Non Cals but set up the alter call to have a pleasant end to the service. :tongue3::tongue3::tongue3:

What is the purpose of manufactured conflict in a local church for a doctirne that makes no difference in anyone's salvation. It is fine here on this board, but I am not going to worship at a local church that centers around conflict about DOG, Bible versions, end of times, etc instead of Jesus Christ and the Gospel. The local church would be a reflection of some of the threads on this board on Calvinsim. Been there done that.

 

[preacher4truth]

Consider where we would be if the Canon of Dordrecht didn't take place and condemn Arminianism as false teaching. True Arminianism is false teaching, and was developed as a reaction against Sovereignty and for mans inability. Just ponder that for a few seconds. In this we "reformed" consider what's at stake with this errant theology and address it.

What would happen if we didn't have the false teachings of Pelagius condemned at Carthage? Men of God have stood up to defend the faith, as Paul, Jude, Peter, the other Apostles, who addressed false teachings as those above and were set to defend truth. Were they well liked? Absolutely not, but who cares, I love men like these who are in the heat of the battle.

Now, can these things be addressed on here without the pejorative attitude attacking those who expose these false teachings with real evidence? I don't know, but I seriously doubt they can going by the track record.

I do know this, that whenever a thread is started to discuss the errant theologies of these camps, the typical response by those within the camps is not to address the documented evidence but rather to attack the person with ridicule and name calling without ever addressing the teachings defined.

One more thing, when an anti-cal thread is began with subjective unfactual findings, these same go in to these with nothing to offer theologically, but with the same ridicule slung at "reformed" brothers.

Anyhow, thankfully men of God stood up for truth to defend the faith once delivered to the Saints. We have in Scripture "the unity of the faith" not "the unity of the faiths." We're not building Babel, we're building the Kingdom of God, thus the battle for truth against said errors.

Now, I would like to get some findings in line with the OP from others and what they do.

- Peace

 

[preacher4truth]

I agree with you.

But this begs a question. If that's true, why do we have to use any method at all?

I think our method is preaching the Gospel, and the elect are saved. We make mistakes, yet Gods Gospel still accomplishes its objective. We do however dislike some of the things we've seen go on in churches with altar calls.

We could probably each learn something from one another, things to do and things not to do! :laugh: :thumbsup:

One infamous "method" is the "say this prayer and you will go to heaven."

 

[gb93433]

Oh? Your statement denies what you're saying above:

One is about doctrine and its relationship to evangelism, etc., the other is about discipleship.

 

[preacher4truth]

One is about doctrine and its relationship to evangelism, etc., the other is about discipleship.

Yes, and as you said it was "in churches."

But allow me to restate myself with an edit to cover all the bases you are running to.

Sounds like you have everything under control while maintaining a calumniatory eye upon other churches and individuals who aren't up to parr with you.

 

[DaChaser1]

I don't think you'll find complete unanimity among Reformed folks about altar calls. Nor will you find consistence among Non-Reformed, either.

I've had pastors both Cal and Non-Cal. All the non-Cals pastors gave invitations. Both the Cal pastors gave invitations, but not in every service.

The difference was in the method. The Cals rarely made appeals. It was more like, "if the Holy Spirit is dealing with you, or if you desire to join our fellowship, we give you an opportunity to respond publicly."

There might be one verse of a hymn, and if there was no response, that was it.

The non-Cals methodology was pretty much typical of most Baptist churches I'm familiar with. Some were gentle appeals, but some were pretty hard sell.

And, unfortunately there were a few I'll-do-anything-say-anything-try-any-trick-to-get-somebody-in-the-service-to-move.

Interestingly enough, I learned during a mission trip to Romania, that Romanian Baptists, though non-Calvinist, never did invitations.

The pastor explained to me, "we have come to believe that it's not necessary to create an atmosphere in which the Holy Spirit can work. When the Spirit is working, we do not have to beg. They will come to us."

the usual fare in my baptist church is at end of each Sunday service, the pastor gives the invition that whoever knows that they need today to come to Christ in order to become a new person, get right with God, come forward to speak with either Him, one of the Elders, or one o fthe pastoral prayer staff....

No shouting, pretty even keeled, just asking that IF one isconvicted right now to 'do business" with the Lord, as regarding getting saved or else to speak with Him, come on down!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

the usual fare in my baptist church is at end of each Sunday service, the pastor gives the invition that whoever knows that they need today to come to Christ in order to become a new person, get right with God, come forward to speak with either Him, one of the Elders, or one o fthe pastoral prayer staff....

No shouting, pretty even keeled, just asking that IF one isconvicted right now to 'do business" with the Lord, as regarding getting saved or else to speak with Him, come on down!

Why do you need a pastor....isnt the Holy Spirit sufficient?