Thanks.
Refuting Catholics...Scripture or Chick tracts?
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by D28guy, Jan 29, 2006.
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Doubting Thomas,
And...to just use one example...neither the Arminians nor the Calvinists are guilty of distorting the true nature of God, Christ, and/or salvation.
"2:6
However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,
2:8
which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
2:9
But as it is written: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him." F5
2:10
But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
2:11
For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
2:12
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
2:13
These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
I hope with all may heart that they will be standing before God at the "Bema" seat of judgment(rewards or loss of rewards for the saved), but I am afraid the vast majority will be at the Great White Thrown judgment seat.
Referring to the Calvinists and Arminians, you said...
Why then are both sides responsible for bringing millions of lost people into the body of Christ through the years? Must be that they are proclaiming the same gospel.
Why is it that I, and millions of others, have been blessed and enriched greatly by books, radio messages, tv broadcasts, and preachers whom I have heard or known from both camps?
(Even though I lean towards one of the 2...not gonna say which one)
Why is it that both groups have bible colleges and seminaries that produce great men of God who are working together in the work of bringing in the Harvest...in spite of their different views?
BOTH sides are getting people saved because BOTH sides are proclaiming the same gospel of Jesus Christ, and are growing up believers into fruitful believers. They simply see somethings as working themselves out differently. I have been blessed greatly by teaching on both sides.
(Gee...I wonder why you left them out? Maybe because it blows apart your ridiculous charicature?)
Praise God \o/ that we have the priviledge of having this unfathonable God literally indwell each one of us individually and become our teacher!
"However, where the massive Hierachy is, with Cathedrals and Robes and Crowns and gold encrusted Thrones is, there I am in the midst of it!"
No.
"Whereever 2 or 3 are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them"
But we are to never...never...NEVER...NEVER...consider ANY group to be the God anointed truth dispenser for the lowely masses.
We enter the world of the cults when we do that.
I said...
And you said...
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Originally posted by Matt Black:
Thomas, wow! Great post!
Eliyahu, following your numbered paragraphs:-
1. Yes
2. No they're not - or if they are they are doing so in disobedience to or in ignorance of Catholic dogma.
3. No
4. No. Mistaken in part, as all ecclesial bodies who possess only part of the Apostolic Tradition are, but heretical, no.Click to expand...
The Problem is that you deny the fact and reality that all the Roman Catholic churches are doing. I have never seen any Roman Catholic church which is condemning the prayer to Mary. There are plenty of Prayer books published by Catholics. You must notice that they are encouraging their people to pray to the Holy Mother of God.
You are denying the real facts. Check with your neighbor Catholics. You don't know about Catholic at all. This is why I think the people who support Catholic are not trustworthy at all. -
Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I was raised a Catholic and have two uncles who are priests in that Church, so I am aware of what the Catholic Church teaches on this subject.
The Catholic Church does not teach that Catholics should offer prayers to Mary. -
The Catholic Church does not teach that Catholics should offer prayers to Mary.Click to expand...Pope John Paul II on March 31, 1985 as part of the Angelus prayer: "May Mary our Protectress, the Co-Redemptrix, to whom we offer our prayer with great outpouring, make our desire generously correspond to the desire of the Redeemer."
Found online in the public domain at : http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/abtmary.htmClick to expand...
As a child and as part of my grade-school education, I was taught under the auspices of the RCC.
I was taught to pray directly to Mary as if she had the deity attributes of all-hearing, omni-presence, ever/always-present. The double-speak of the Catholic theologians concerning latria vs. hyper-dulia was never mentioned.
They present a crafted, smooth and compelling apologetic to the world but teach by practice something else to the laity.
The fifth marian dogma (Mary as coremptrix, mediatrix and advocate) has been accepted and taught to the laity as a matter of practice for decades.
http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/abtmary.htm
Here is an example of a prayer to her which clearly proves the point of her mediatorship and advocacy (per the RCC).
http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/prayer/hailholy.htm
HankD
[ February 03, 2006, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: HankD ] -
Bro. James Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Matthew Black said,"The Catholic Church does not teach that Catholics should offer prayers to Mary".
I, too was brainwashed by the holy see. After about 45 years of being away from the catechism and prayers, I still remember the prayers.
I am having difficulty harmonizing Matthew's statement with the prayer called "Hail Mary", which is repeated ad infinitum in sets of 5, as I recall, on that set of prayer beads called the rosary.
I still remember every word: Hail, Mary,full of grace; The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb: Jesus. Holy, Mary, Mother of God, PRAY for us sinners now, and at the hour of our deaths. Amen.
Praying the rosary is praying mostly to Mary. As I recall we would repeat the Hail Mary as payment for having committed sins which we had just confessed to the priest.
That Mary gets adoration should be obvious--even to the cursory observer.
Selah,
Bro. James -
Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
One can only pray to God. That is what the Catholic Church teaches too. One may petition her under Catholic doctrine, but only in the same way that I might petition you to pray for me if eg: I was unwell.
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His Holiness Pope Pius XII
Encyclical on Proclaiming the Queenship of Mary
Promulgated October 11, 1954
To the Venerable Brethren, the Patriarchs, Primates, Archbishops, Bishops and other Local Ordinaries in Peace and Communion with the Holy See.
Venerable Brethren, Health and Apostolic Blessing.
From the earliest ages of the Catholic Church a Christian people, whether in time of triumph or more especially in time of crisis, has addressed prayers of petition and hymns of praise and veneration to the Queen of Heaven.
The New Advent, Catholic Encyclopedia online found in the Public domain at http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pi12ac.htmClick to expand... -
What really amazes me is the stronghold the RCC has on their members. This thread is the perfect example. You have direct quotes and sources from their own sites, pope and doctrine you STILL get this...
The Catholic Church does not teach that Catholics should offer prayers to Mary.Click to expand...One can only pray to God. That is what the Catholic Church teaches too.Click to expand... -
Hmm...where to begin.
Originally posted by D28guy:
There was much more to his point. The point is to not condemn your brother because he has a different view of some issue, or scriptural interpretation than you do. Let him have his convictions.Click to expand...
"...Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which those who are untaught and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of Scriptures." (2 Peter 3:15, 16)
Peter suggests that the Scriptures are capable of being twisted to the DESTRUCTION of individuals, but you suggest we should let folks just have there own contradictory convictions about Scriptural interpretations and it's all somehow hunky-dory. Sad. :(
Paul told Timothy: "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine..." (2 Tim 4:3). Notice Paul didn't add: "But that's okay, Timothy, since everybody has their own differing convictions and they just need to be convinced in their own minds. After all, one man's sound doctrine is another one's unsound doctrine. Who am I to judge?" :D
(Also notice that Paul didn't differentiate between "foundational" and "non-foundational" doctrines...)
Its perfectly OK for their to be different interpretations on non-foundational issues. Just as today.Click to expand...
And we...using the scriptures alone...have no problem identifying cults for what they are...with no Truth Gestapo.Click to expand...
Every promise given to the Apostles is also given to every born again person on earth today...regarding the promise of the Holy Spirit guiding them into all truth.Click to expand...
But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.Click to expand...
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."[/i]Click to expand...
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"The Apostles and early Christians would find your charge absurd given that the Church is the ground and pillar of truth (not "truthS"), and they were to contend earnestly for the faith (not "faithS")."Click to expand...
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"That's really a non-answer. Besides it doesn't address the fundamental issue of Calvism and Arminianism ascribing mutually contradictory attributes to God as we'll see below...Again a meaningless non-answer. These arguments have not led to a consensus. Each side is firmly entrenched in their respective positions with their mutually contradictory views of God."Click to expand...
Why then are both sides responsible for bringing millions of lost people into the body of Christ through the years? Must be that they are proclaiming the same gospel.Click to expand...
Why is it that I, and millions of others, have been blessed and enriched greatly by books, radio messages, tv broadcasts, and preachers whom I have heard or known from both camps?Click to expand...
Why is it that both groups have bible colleges and seminaries that produce great men of God who are working together in the work of bringing in the Harvest...in spite of their different views?Click to expand...
BOTH sides are getting people saved because BOTH sides are proclaiming the same gospel of Jesus Christ, and are growing up believers into fruitful believers. They simply see somethings as working themselves out differently. I have been blessed greatly by teaching on both sides.Click to expand...
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"One side's "god" is the god who monergistically determines whom he will bestow eternal life upon irrespective of any will, desires, or response of his creatures--his creatures basically have no choice in the matter. The other side's "god" is the one who truly offers salvation to everyone but allows creatures to receive or reject His offer based on the free will He created in them."Click to expand...
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"So the two ascribe mutually contradictory characteristics to "god" (and to man as well). If position A is true about God, then position B is necessarily false (and vice versa)."Click to expand...
(Gee...I wonder why you left them out? Maybe because it blows apart your ridiculous charicature?) </font>[/QUOTE]Because the "composite view", while haphazardly mixing and matching the "points" of Calvinism or Arminianism, still either subsribes to one view point of God's omnibenevolence (mentioned above) or the other. Neither can be right simultaneously. My point still stands, your accusations of "ridiculous charicature" notwithstanding.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"Therefore the alleged commonality of "faith" breaks down at the very point of the object of that faith as there are two rival concepts of "God" being expoused."Click to expand...
Praise God \o/ that we have the priviledge of having this unfathonable God literally indwell each one of us individually and become our teacher!Click to expand...
"Whereever 2 or 3 are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them"Click to expand...
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"Inspired Scripture commands us to keep the Tradition whether delievered orally or written (2 Thess 2:15). The visible historic Church has kept this authentic Tradition since the days of the Apostles who enjoined them to keep it.Click to expand..."True, Scriptures must be approached with humility and a teachable heart. But part of that humility and teachableness is recognizing the God ordained authority of the Apostolic Church and the Apostolic tradition."Click to expand...
But we are to never...never...NEVER...NEVER...consider ANY group to be the God anointed truth dispenser for the lowely masses.Click to expand...
We enter the world of the cults when we do that.Click to expand...
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />All one has to do is look at the mess that happens when that principle is ignored...
Jehovahs Witnesses.
Jim Jones.
Mormons.
Christian Science.
Catholic Church
David KoreshClick to expand...
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />You keep throwing out that canard.Click to expand...
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"These are groups which are even more extreme in rejecting the Apostolic Tradition and replacing it with their own man-madetraditions."Click to expand...
"We do not have a low view of Gods church. Gods church is all of the people born of the Spirit on earth. Not any particular organisation."Click to expand...
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"(those who are in the tradition of the "magesterial Reformation" may be the exception). Those of us who recognize the historic apostolic Church have a high view of both Scripture and the Church,"Click to expand...
Second, Christ condemned the tradition of the Pharisees since it did not derive from God but from men only. Apostolic Tradition--in the oral and written teachings of the Apostles--derive ultimately from Christ Himself through the Apostles and maintained in the Church.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"....which wrote the New Testament Scriptures"Click to expand...
The Catholic Church wrote the bible. In spite of the fact that there was no Catholic Church when the scriptures were recorded in the 1st century.Click to expand...
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"...(and proclaimed the Christological interpretation of the Old), defined the limits of the canon, and which has guarded the correct interpretation of it as found in the Apostolic tradition.Click to expand...
[ February 03, 2006, 03:00 PM: Message edited by: Doubting Thomas ] -
Originally posted by Matt Black:
The Catholic Church does not teach that Catholics should offer prayers to Mary . [/QB]Click to expand...
It seems that you don't know about RC, maybe even your brethren either.
Look at this Rosario Prayer:
The Closing Prayer
We’ve covered the opening prayers of the rosary. In fact, we’ve covered all the prayers of the rosary except the very last one, which is usually the Hail Queen (Salve Regina), sometimes called the Hail Holy Queen. It’s the most commonly recited prayer in praise of Mary , after the Hail Mary itself, and was composed at the end of the eleventh century. It generally reads like this (there are several variants):
" Hail holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness, and our hope ! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears . Turn, then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary."
So those are the prayers of the rosary. Between the introductory prayers and the concluding prayer is the meat of the rosary: the decades. Each decade—there are fifteen in a full rosary (which takes about forty-five minutes to say)—is composed of ten Hail Marys. Each decade is bracketed between an Our Father and a Glory Be, so each decade actually has twelve prayers.
Can RC not pray directly to Jesus or to God ? -
Originally posted by Eliyahu:
Can RC not pray directly to Jesus or to God ?Click to expand...
I'm not taking sides here on the issue, just making an objective observation. -
As a former Roman Catholic myself, who has seriously struggled in his breakaway from the Roman Catholic Institution, I shouldn't even bother with this argument, since it does rile up some old bitterness and feelings. In fact, I think that D28Guy is feeling the same things that I once felt before I let them go. Perhaps he left Roman Catholicism just recently. I hope he finds peace with this bitterness.
Listen, everyone --- the argument for or against the Roman Catholic Institution is a futile one. It will go back and forth with no one giving an inch, let alone a mile. For every scriptural argument against the Institution, there is one for it. And vice versa. So please, don't go there.
Sharing the faith isn't about slinging KJV verses or passing out Chick Tracts. All one needs to do is preach the simplicity of the gospel. Nothing more, nothing less. This alone will speak volumes to the Roman Catholic. This is what attracted me to Christianity in the first place.
As well, and this is VERY important, you have to live the example of a Christian in the presence of a Roman Catholic. You will NEVER lead one to Christ if you are full of negativity or bitterness to them or to their institution. If you want to share your faith, then live with the true joy that comes from it. Otherwise, you are going to turn everyone off, for who wants to be an angry, bitter Christian? -
Matt said...
"I was raised a Catholic and have two uncles who are priests in that Church, so I am aware of what the Catholic Church teaches on this subject.
The Catholic Church does not teach that Catholics should offer prayers to Mary."Click to expand...
Hank D said...
Eliyahu, you are correct in the fact that Mary is treated as a goddess by the RCC laity under the direction of the priesthood and the various orders of nuns.Click to expand...
"As a child and as part of my grade-school education, I was taught under the auspices of the RCC.
I was taught to pray directly to Mary as if she had the deity attributes of all-hearing, omni-presence, ever/always-present."Click to expand...
"The double-speak of the Catholic theologians concerning latria vs. hyper-dulia was never mentioned."Click to expand...
Sadly amazed,
Mike -
Matt said...
"One can only pray to God. That is what the Catholic Church teaches too. One may petition her under Catholic doctrine, but only in the same way that I might petition you to pray for me if eg: I was unwell."Click to expand...
Mike -
mozier,
"As a former Roman Catholic myself, who has seriously struggled in his breakaway from the Roman Catholic Institution, I shouldn't even bother with this argument, since it does rile up some old bitterness and feelings. In fact, I think that D28Guy is feeling the same things that I once felt before I let them go. Perhaps he left Roman Catholicism just recently."Click to expand...
No...Jesus Christ rescued me from the Catholic Church over 20 years ago.
"I hope he finds peace with this bitterness."Click to expand...
I said I have none now, because at 1st I was angry that they never once presented the gospel of Jesus Christ to me for all those years I was in its clutches.
But I got over that a loooong time ago.
"Sharing the faith isn't about slinging KJV verses..."Click to expand...
Every Catholic who has read the verses posted by myself and others that condemn the teachings of the Catholic Church have more than likely discerned the truth of those scriptures posted as they read them. Gods scriptures have His anointing on them.
What they do with the truth presented, and when they might do it, is their buisiness.
"or passing out Chick Tracts."Click to expand...
God bless you,
Mike -
We need to stop repeating one things. Catholics do not worship anyone other than God. We can debate the incorrectness of praying to others besides God, and those debates are worthy. But we cannot, with any accuracy, say that Catholics worship any other God besides the Almighty God.
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JohnV,
"We need to stop repeating one things. Catholics do not worship anyone other than God. We can debate the incorrectness of praying to others besides God, and those debates are worthy. But we cannot, with any accuracy, say that Catholics worship any other God besides the Almighty God."Click to expand...
Its goddess worship. I'll prove it to you later.
God bless,
Mike -
It may be many things, but it's not goddess worship. Catholics don't believe Mary to be a deity, nor do they believe there is any deity but the Almighty God.
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Johnv,
You are correct. Catholics do not worship Mary as a goddess, though the devotion to her can seem exaggerated to the non-Catholic to the point where it does appear to be worship.
I can only hope that D28Guy (whom I am glad to see that he left the church 20 years, yet still seems bitter, IMO) doesn't go the Hislop Babylon route to prove his point.
It is too easy to accuse Roman Catholics of things they do not do, let alone the things they do!
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