Well said. My guess is that winman will ignore 90% of this and return to some sort of straw man.
Regeneration Before Faith
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by uhdum, Apr 28, 2010.
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Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
This verse tells us that God's word is quick and powerful. Notice there are no loopholes or exceptions in this verse.
1 Thes 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
Notice here that the word of God only effectually works in those that believe.
And I showed you that Jesus could not perform any great works because of unbelief.
Matt 13:58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
Mark 6:5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.
Notice carefully in Mark 6:5 that it says Jesus could do no mighty work there, and Matthew 13:58 (which is the same account) shows it was because of the people's unbelief.
It doesn't say Jesus wouldn't do mighty works there, it says he couldn't.
There are not two callings, the general and effectual call, there is one call, one gospel, it is the same for all men, but is only effectual and profits those that believe.
Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Does this verse in any way imply there are two different kinds of gospel, one general and one effectual? No. All men hear the same gospel, but the gospel only profits those and effectually works in those that believe.
And go back to Mark 6:6. Why would Jesus marvel at these persons unbelief if God is the one who gives a person faith? What? Was Jesus unaware that these men were unelect and that his Father had not chosen to regenerate these men and give them faith?
That is ridiculous, because the scriptures show Jesus knew in advance who would believe, and who would believe not.
John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
No, Jesus marvelled because these persons had been presented with tremendous evidence that he was the Son of God and still did not believe.
But if a man can only have faith if God gives it to a man, Jesus would never be surprised or marvel at unbelief. He would already know who would believe and who would not.
Calvinism cannot explain verses like Mark 6:6. -
John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
No, Jesus marvelled because these persons had been presented with tremendous evidence that he was the Son of God and still did not believe.[/quote]Yep, so does everybody else.
also, there is a difference in "can not" and "may not" People cannot because they will not. -
The Archangel Well-Known Member
Blessings,
The Archangel -
Mark 6:4-6 and Mat.8:10 use the word "marvel" in a negative and then a positive sense. He marveled at the unbelief in home town folks and marveled at the faith of the Roman centurian' faith.
Your argument is the same argument used by Unitarians to prove that Jesus is not God the Son. They say how could He be God and yet "marvel' at anything since he is omnicient. How does it feel to take up the objection of unitarians???
What you and unitarians forget is that Christ is still a man and he grew in wisdom and knowledge and he is not speaking here as God or in the capacity of divinity but as a man.
To "marvel" is to be amazed at something. The depth of depravity expressed by those who were eye witness of the power of God is amazing to any man, even Jesus. I have been amazed at the depth of hatred of the human heart by things I have witnessed even though I believe and teach total depravity. Human hatred for God never ceases to amaze me in the depth it can go.
Of couse, the word of God is effectual in them that believe (1 Thes. 2:13). He is not talking to people who were in the process of being converted to the gospel but to those who had been saved for some time. The point of faith or conversion is BY THE WORD (Rom. 10:17; 1 Thes. 1:4-5; 2 Cor. 4:6) and there the word is empowered by God to produce faith in the elect. Look at the Greek term translated "word" in Romans 10:17 (Gr. Rhema) or the command of God. The same command described in 2 Cor. 4:6. The same command that comes in "power and in the Spirit" and not merely "in word only" in 1 Thes. 1:4-5.
You are simply not being honest with scripture or the context of the scriptures you are using.
Hebrews 4:12 like 1 Pet. 1:25 refers to the Incarnate Word of God not to the written Word of God - look at the context that follows it:
Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
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An example. You are in a crowded theater. A fire breaks out and a person shouts "Fire, fire! everybody get out quickly!". Those that believe this warning will immediately get up and leave and be effectually saved. But those who do not believe and remain in their seats are quickly engulfed in the fire and perish. They heard the same message, but it was not effectual to save them because of their unbelief.
Jesus always has power to save, and he always has power to heal, but it is conditioned and dependent upon the faith of the hearer. If you do not have faith in him, you are calling him a liar (impossible to please God without faith), and he will not pour his grace upon you.
This is why Jesus told the man with the possessed son that if he could believe, all things were possible.
Mark 9:22 And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us.
23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.
This man had to believe before Jesus could cast out this evil spirit. And that is confirmed by Jesus himself. When the disciples asked Jesus why they could not cast out this spirit, Jesus told them it was because of their unbelief.
Matt 17:19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
This is the same account in Matthew. Jesus had given the disciples power to cast out unclean spirits and devils. But they could not cast this particular spirit out. When they asked Jesus why, he told them plainly that is was because of their unbelief.
So, God's word always has power, but it is conditioned and dependent upon belief. If you do not believe God's word, it will not effectually work in you, but if you do believe it, it will.
So, the fault is with man, not God. God is not sending out two different kinds of calling, only one. It is effectual to those who believe, ineffectual to those who do not.
And notice back in Mark 9:23 that Jesus said, "If thou canst believe". Why would Jesus ever say such a thing if God regenerates a man to believe? If God regenerates a man he will always have faith, and if God does not regenerate a man it is impossible to have faith. There is no "if" in Calvinsim, you either have faith or not. So it would be absurd for Jesus to make this statement if Calvinism were true. -
John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
For non-Cals, this verse fits very nicely with 1 Peter 1:2 that says we are elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father. I believe that God saw into the future those that would accept and believe the gospel and chose or elected them. Calvinists do not have a clue why they are elected.
John 6:64 says Jesus "knew from the beginning". I believe this to mean before the foundation of the world, although it is not clearly specified. At other times when Jesus spoke of "the beginning" he spoke of the creation, so it is very probable that is what he meant here as well.
If Calvinsim were true, Jesus would never marvel at either faith or unbelief. However, if unregenerated man has the ability to believe, then there is a reason to marvel at both. The centurion was not a Jew, he did not have the promises the Jews had and yet he believed. Those others whom Jesus marvelled at their unbelief had tremendous evidence that he was the Son of God, so he marvelled at how they could be so obstinate and wilfully blind.
I have shown you numerous times in the scriptures where men believed who had not even received the Spirit yet, but you cling to your false doctrine.
Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
This question of Paul's would be ridiculous if Calvinism were true. I guess you Calvinists understand the word of God better than Paul?
No, you are blinded by your doctrine and cannot accept plain evidence before your eyes. -
Jesus always has power to save, and he always has power to heal, but it is conditioned and dependent upon the faith of the hearer. If you do not have faith in him, you are calling him a liar (impossible to please God without faith), and he will not pour his grace upon you. [/quote]Yes, Jesus only saves those that have faith. (this was of course the choice of God meaning that He won't save everyone.)
The general call is made to everyone. -
Calvinism teaches that unregenerate man will always be in absolute unwillingness and opposition to God, and that God must regenerate the man to make him willing to accept Christ, but this is not what the scriptures show. The scriptures show that a man is "persuaded". The word persuade necessarily proves that unregenrate men have a free will. Persuade does not mean coerced, compelled, or imposed upon. No, a man is persuaded or convinced to believe the word of God of his own free will. [/quote]You might want to re-read that. Unregenerate man will always be unwilling to come, or otherwise he would be regenerate. Man is persuaded by the power of God.
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For non-Cals, this verse fits very nicely with 1 Peter 1:2 that says we are elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father. I believe that God saw into the future those that would accept and believe the gospel and chose or elected them. Calvinists do not have a clue why they are elected.[/quote]Your position is unbiblical. I Peter doesn't say that foreknowledge was God looking ahead and seeing who would believe. This is unbiblical adding to God's word. The Bible doesn't say that God chose because man chose. This was be circular. God chose because man chose God because God chose man because man chose God because God chose man..........
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My friend, you jerk texts out of context and redfine them to suit your fancy. Why not interpret John 6:64 by John 6:65 which in turn interprets Jn. 6:44-45???? John 6:65 tells you why those in John 6:64 did not believe because the ability to believe was not "given unto them of the Father." Jn. 6:65 summarizs John 6:44-45 in that one CONTEXTUAL defined statement:
Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
"Therefore I said unto you"??? When? Where? ANSWER: John 6:44-45. However, note the replacement "given" instead of "draw"! Hence to be drawn by the Father means there is something "GIVEN UNTO HIM of the Fahter." What in this context needs to be "given unto him"???? Look at verse 64 and see what they were missing:
who they were that believed not,
The missing element was BELIEF and that is the root cause for Judas betraying him. Therefore to be dawn in verse 44 is to be given something opposite to "beleived not". The answer is the ability to believe or faith and that is precisely why John 6:29 says that to believe in God is "the work of God."
1 Pet 1:2 does say elect according to the Foreknowledge of God but Romans 8:28 reveals that God's Purpose precedes the working out of that purpose in verse 29-30. God foreknows (v. 29) because God purposed (v. 28) to save the elect. Just like a builder of a house. The builder foreknows where every room is in the house because He has already purposed it and it can be seen in the blue prints. This purpose in verse 28 is effectual to all "whom" he did foreknow, predestinate, call, justified and glorified because all of "whom" are the subjects of these things are also all "them he also" are the "called according to His purpose." Sorry, but your theory simply perverts the Biblical context and quite badly perverts it.
Again, Acts 19:2 is jerked out of the immediate and overall context. The overall context is the visible manifestations of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost and afterwards. The very reason Paul asked this question because there were no such visible manifestations present in the lives of these disciples. These manifestations of the Spirit is what Peter promised and what the prophet Joel prophesied about in Acts 2. It was promised to those who received the gospel and were baptized (Acts 2:38-39). They were received through the laying on of the apostles hands to those who believed and were baptized (Acts 8:14-19). These "disciples" did not manifest those sign gifts of the Holy Spirit. Why? Because they were still without scriptural baptism. They supposed they had submitted to the baptism of John but they had not for they were ignorant of the Spirit and John had preached the baptism in the Spirit to those he baptized with water (Mt. 3:11). They were ignorant that Jesus was the Christ but John had preached to those he baptized they should believe upon Jesus as the Christ (Acts 19:4). Their purpose for baptism was wrong because their administrator was not qualified or authorized to administer baptism due to the same ignorance. However, look at Acts 19:5-6 and you will see after baptism and laying on of the apostles hands they received the Spirit in the sense of outward manifest sign gifts. Those in Acts 8:14-19 hadn't received the Holy Spirit either in this same sense but they were born again before they received the Spirit in this sense.
Every text your hands touch you jerk out of context, misinterpret and just pervert just as the Scriptures predicted of your sort (2 Pet. 3:15-17).
Now, look at verse 6 and you will see these outward manifestations of the Spirit were conveyed by the laying on of the Apostles hands.
What was not "given"? The ability to believe as previously discussed in verse 64:
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When I was in High School, we studied a detailed course on false arguments. You Calvinists employ them constantly. You use circular reasoning often, he is trying to smear me by association. Both are false forms of argument.
It is Calvinism that distorts and redefines the word foreknowledge, because it contradicts your doctrine, just as Calvinism redefines many other words that present problems for you, such as the words "all" and "whosoever".
You will believe something and argue till you are blue in the face a doctrine that you do not have even a single verse in scripture to support you.
Even Jesus's disciples did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit until the day of Pentacost.
Why would Jesus promise to send the Holy Spirit to his disciples if they already had the Holy Spirit? Has that question ever occurred to you?
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
The disciples were believers, but they did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit. You need to study the scriptures more. -
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According means;
1) down from, through out
2) according to, toward, along
And foreknowledge is the Greek word prognosis (our English spelling) which we still use today, which is defined as:
1.Medicine/Medical. a forecasting of the probable course and outcome of a disease, esp. of the chances of recovery.
2.a forecast or prognostication.
Of course, Calvinists try to redefine this word because it contradicts their doctine. If that's what you wish to do, I can't stop you.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Calvinism insists that only those whom God regenerates can take this water of life, but the scriptures show all men have this ability if they so chose to use it. Calvinism uses circular reasoning to twist and distort this verse and many others. Someday you will realize this is circular reasoning, and then you will be angry at those who taught and fooled you with this false form of argument. And you will be embarrassed that you fell for this deceptive form of argument.
What do you have to say? Why did Jesus promise his disciples the Holy Spirit if they were already regenerated by the Holy Spirit according to your doctrine?
We know the Samaritans believed on Jesus, and the scriptures even tell why they believed, not from being regenerated by the Holy Spirit, but by hearing the testimony of the woman from the well, and then later by hearing the words of Jesus himself. This is exactly what Romans 10:17 says, faith comes by hearing the word of God.
John 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
How do you explain John 4:39 which says these Samaritans believed on Jesus because of the saying of the woman?
Does it say they were regenerated by the Holy Spirit to believe?
Did they have the indwelling Holy Spirit? No, because we are told three chapters later that the Holy Spirit was not given to believers yet.
John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
So, we have many examples of people who believed on Jesus before he was crucified, rose from the dead, and was glorified. But the Holy Spirit was not yet given, the scriptures verify this.
How do you explain this? -
Also, I like how you used the definition of according, but that isn't all of them.
It can also mean to be in agreement, harmony with something. In other words, you could say in agreement with the foreknowledge of God. You are making "according to" be interpreted "because of."
Also, it doesn't say what this foreknowledge is of. You assume it is speaking about foreknowledge of faith, but that isn't in the text. Other places we see, those whom he foreknew. Saying that God choose because man chose him would contradict Scripture.
Also, you said "100% of all men can freely accept the water of life if they desire to do so." i don't know of any Calvinist(other than that one I mentioned) that would disagree with this. They key part of the phrase is "if they desire to do so." God will reject no one that wants to come to him. No Calvinist would disagree with this
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
I have no problem with that verse and do not twist that verse at all. For you to continue to say that I do is to misrepresent me.
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We who believe were chosen before the foundation of the world according to his foreknowledge. And he has determined we shall be holy and without blame before him, and he has predestinated we shall be adopted as children.
John 1:12 shows you must first believe to become a son of God.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Oh, I know what you will say, you will falsely say verse 13 says we are born of God to believe. But if you stop and think for even one second you will see that is impossible, because you are saying a person is born of God so that they have the ability to believe so that they may become a son of God.
So, that is saying you have to be born of God to later become a son of God.
Do you see now why verse 13 cannot possibly be interpreted the way Calvinism interprets it? Think about it and you will.
No, John 1:12 easily teaches that you must first believe to "become" a son of God, so you cannot have possibly be born again before you believed. Verse 13 actually refutes and disproves Calvinism, not supports it.
Unless you believe a person can be born of God and not be a son of God. Is that what you believe? That would be absurd.
You do not believe that an unregenerate man can do any good or believe, but the scriptures show the unregenerate man can do both. I have shown you numerous times that God himself confirmed Cain could have done good.
Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Cain was not utterly enslaved to sin or his own nature, God himself said he could do well, and God said Cain would rule over sin. Total Depravity as Calvinism teaches is false as shown by this passage and many others.
And the scriptures show unregenrate man can believe or have faith.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Jesus here didn't say the regenerate or living shall hear his voice and live (which would be absurd to begin with), he said the dead (unregenerate) shall hear. And those that hear (this means to believe) shall live.
No, the unregenerate can desire God as shown by the young rich ruler. He was sincere, he wanted to be saved, but was not willing to give up his wealth. That does not mean he did not sincerely desire God, the scriptures clearly show he did, this is why it says he went away very sorrowful.
The Philipian jailer wanted to be saved and he was unregenerate, else why would Paul tell him he needed to believe on Jesus?
No, Calvinism teaches circular reasoning, saying whosoever is willing is willing, and whosoever desires desires. You obviously still do not understand or recognize circular reasoning. -
Before I respond, will you please get this through your thick head that I'm not a Calvinist. You don't even have a clue to what Calvinism teaches much less what I believe. You misrepresent too many times. If you are truly a Christian, you need to act like it by not misrepresenting your opponents in debate. I don't misrepresent you and your beliefs. Have you ever heard me do that? No, and if I did, I would apologize and take it back. you on the other hand just repeat it again.
Also, please respond to EVERYTHING and stop you picking and choosing because you realize you have no answer to what I said.
So, you show Scripture to disprove a doctrine that I don't believe anyway.
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You hold the doctrines of Calvinism, why don't you just call yourself a Calvinist? Nearly all of your answers are common answers given by Calvinists word for word.
Calvinist view:
Born again -----> Enabled to have faith -----> Trust in Christ and become son of God
Non- Cal view:
Believe on Jesus -----> God gives power to become a son of God and a person is born again.
Calvinists believe a person is born again (regenerated) to have faith to become a son of God. Why do you think threads have been started asking which comes first, regeneration or faith?
The story of Nathanael shows foreknowledge. Even before his brother called him Jesus said he saw him.
John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
46 And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see.
47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
Verse 45 shows that both Philip and Nathanael were believers, they believed Moses and the prophets. Then notice Nathanael asks Jesus, "Whence knowest thou me?". And notice Jesus said he saw (foreknowledge) Nathanael, even before he was called.
God also said he knew Jeremiah before he was formed in the belly. You have two choices here, either Jeremiah existed before the foundation of the world, or God could see that Jeremiah would believe in advance. Take your pick.
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
It is Calvinists who cannot explain foreknowledge.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
You can insist all day that this verse says all that are drawn will come, it does not say that. It says all that come were drawn. Those are two altogether different things you do not obviously have the discernment to understand.
Jesus said he would draw all men to himself in John 12:32. Well, even you know that not all men come to Christ. But instead of rightly understanding that not all that are drawn will come, you twist and distort the word "all" and say that it does not mean all.
You have to change the definition of the simple word "all" in John 12:32 to make your doctrine work. I don't have to do that.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Sorry, just had to check again. Yep, this verse still says Jesus will draw all men unto himself. Jesus said heaven and earth will pass away, but his words will never pass away, so you better get used to this verse.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
You don't get it, non-Cals do not believe any man can come to Christ without being influenced by the Holy Spirit. But being influenced and enlightened by the Holy Spirit is not regeneration. The scriptures clearly show a man can be enlightened by the Holy Spirit and be lost.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Many believe this passage teaches a person can lose their salvation, but I do not believe that is what this passage is teaching. I believe it is showing that a man can be enlightened by the Holy Spirit. They have tasted, but not eaten, there is a difference. That man can be shown and understand that he is a sinner that needs to accept Christ, but can turn away in rejection. I believe this is speaking of a person who is once and for all rejecting Christ, and so God rejects him. As God expects the earth to bring forth fruit when he rains on it, when he enlightens a man to understand the gospel he expects that man to receive Christ.
You tell me, does this passage show a man can be enlightened by the Holy Spirit and be lost or not?
Calvinists do not understand the difference between being taught and enlightened by the Holy Spirit and being regenerated. -
Let me ask you something, have you ever heard of Charles Ryrie and Warren Wiersbe? Do you think they are Calvinists?
How do you interpret John 1:13? You conveniently forgot to say.[/quote]
Sorry about that, I responded and didn't use that.
John 1:12-13We become "sons of God" through our faith "those that receive him." We are born, not of blood(not speaking about physical birth), nor of the will of the flesh, (We are not the ones cause our birth, just as we didn't cause our physical birth), but of God(Our new birth[regeneration] is of God.)
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Another verse similar to this is
John 8:41-47
You are doing the works your father did." They said to him, "We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father--even God." Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."
Matthew 1:24-25
When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.
to know somebody is more than just knowing their choices. It can mean knowing their existence, or an intimate knowledge of them. You like to add words to these passages that are not there. You say that before I formed thee in the belle I knew thee would believe. Hmmm. That isn't there. Look at the next phrase, and I ordained thee a prophet. Jesus knew Jeremiah and ordained(means to appoint, make) thee a prophet unto the nations" You have to add the words "would believe" to get it to work, but that isn't there.
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