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Featured Regeneration w/o Living Water?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by steaver, Apr 11, 2015.

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  1. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    You keep saying this....

    So, the text says "for the Holy Ghost was not yet given..." But what does that mean? Does it mean "regeneration" as you insist is must? Do we see the Holy Spirit working in a regenerative way (among other ways) in the Old Testament? Of course we do.

    Why, then MUST this statement mean "regeneration?"

    The Archangel
     
    #61 The Archangel, Apr 24, 2015
  2. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    John told us it is the giving of the living water (see verse 38). Thus, the title of this thread, can one be regenerated and not have the living water?
     
    #62 steaver, Apr 24, 2015
  3. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    The will operates freely in the confines of its nature, but it's not a free will. Free means no restrictions...
     
    #63 convicted1, Apr 24, 2015
  4. robustheologian

    robustheologian Well-Known Member
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    Yep...technically no one has a free will.
     
    #64 robustheologian, Apr 24, 2015
  5. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    In Luke 10, Jesus sent seventy in pairs. They were given power to heal, put their peace in whatever place they dwelt, to heal the sick, &c. And you believe they did this w/o the indwelling of the Spirit?
     
    #65 convicted1, Apr 24, 2015
  6. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    It depends how you define free will. As a Christian I am free to obey God, something I could not do prior to being freed from my bondage to sin.
     
    #66 Reformed, Apr 24, 2015
  7. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Then the will isn't free. :smilewinkgrin:
    :thumbsup:


    People freely reject God...no need to be given that ability...

    Thank you...I adamantly disagree, but thanks again.

    People seek God only after being effaciously drawn.

    What mobility? People effaciously drawn come. Those not drawn, don't.

    He'd been to Jerusalem to worship, correct? Yet he lacked something. God sent Philip to him. Work this out for yourself.

    Act 17:30. Could the Jews in Moses' days perfectly keep the Law? Did God know if they could or couldn't? What was the end result when they broke the Law?


    One(regeneration) leads directly(simultaenously) to the other(conversion of the soul/salvation)...
     
    #67 convicted1, Apr 24, 2015
  8. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    I was referring to sinners, Brother. We are free in Christ...
     
    #68 convicted1, Apr 24, 2015
  9. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    And again, what did you to help your momma when she birthed you?
     
    #69 convicted1, Apr 24, 2015
  10. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    That is for you to reconcile with John. I already know the answer....

    The Apostle John, who penned the Gospel of John on behalf of the Holy Spirit concerning this being born from above, declared this Spirit regeneration spoken of was not yet given. And you declare that it was. Now you want me to believe you over John.

    Was the Spirit/Living Water given before Jesus Christ was glorified? Yes or No? Will you listen to John on this matter, or continue the drum beat for regeneration coming before then?

    Absolutely nothing, just as I did absolutely nothing when the Holy Spirit birthed me.

    Now your turn....Was the Spirit/Living Water given before Jesus Christ was glorified? Yes or No? (You may refer to John chapter 7 verses 37-39)
     
    #70 steaver, Apr 24, 2015
  11. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Brother I perceive you are not like some here who just choose to ignore a portion of scripture just to save a doctrinal position. John through the Holy Spirit is very blunt, leaving no wiggle room for any misinterpreting on this point.

    The living water Jesus said He would give IS the Holy Ghost, John is crystal clear this was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

    Go back to chapter 4 where Jesus proclaimed this living water is eternal life.

    So far this is irrefutable, I don't know how you could possibly disagree.

    This may be where we part ways, but I then go back to chapter 3 and keeping with Jesus' message of being born of water and spirit, I conclude regeneration/born again is the receiving of the Holy Ghost living water/eternal life.

    The NT is the beginning of the preaching of the kingdom of God coming to earth spiritually.

    If you still believe regeneration happens without the giving of the Spirit living water/ eternal life, I would like you to explain how you come to this conclusion WHILE NOT ignoring John 7:37-39.
     
    #71 steaver, Apr 24, 2015
  12. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    John Calvin on John 7:39....



    Adam Clarke....


    Albert Barnes....


    I am quite sure you won't accept their teachings, but that is what the text means...
     
    #72 convicted1, Apr 25, 2015
  13. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Were Moses, Aaron, David, Solomon, Samson, Jeremiah, Esther, Ruth, Abraham, Sarah, Joshua, Caleb, saved?
     
    #73 convicted1, Apr 25, 2015
  14. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    :laugh: ".....that is what the text means" ? Why? Because they say so? They do nothing more than give their flawed opinion without substance to back it up. Your right, I do not accept their teaching on this because it goes directly against the Apostle's crystal clear teaching that the Holy Spirit/Living Water was not yet given!! You may note however, that these men DO believe John was speaking on regeneration in this passage, yet they want to divide the Holy Spirit into how much volume of living water He is putting out and when. Ridiculous!
     
    #74 steaver, Apr 25, 2015
  15. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    They were saved by grace through faith to Paradise at some level of Heaven. Afterwards they were taken into the presence of the Father, after the death, burial, resurrection and glorification of Jesus Christ. You have to understand, regeneration is a NT implementation. God calls it the New Covenant in the blood of Jesus Christ. You will find this all through the NT when you study it.
     
    #75 steaver, Apr 25, 2015
  16. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    This passage is detrimental to the doctrine of Calvinism. As brother convicted demonstrated, even commentarians have to pull stuff out of thin air in order to attempt an understanding of the clear teaching that the living water was not yet given. Here is a fresh idea! How about we except what APOSTLE John said, even if that goes against Mr Calvin?
     
    #76 steaver, May 13, 2015
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