Remaining Roman Catholic

My Catholic family in Pennsylvania always knew about the proclivities (sexual) of priests. I remember the conversations around the table regarding how this priest was a “fairy nice guy” or how this other priest was carrying on affairs with parish women, blah blah blah. So I believe they always knew. Had not too, the worst pedofile in PA state history was our parish church rector. With that said, my family (particularly my mother) advised me to keep a safe distance away from any priest or cleargy.

This activity perminated our approach to church life. I was discouraged to be an alter boy for example. So I have to conclude that the laity was complicit in allowing predatory priests to exist for so many years. They in effect closed their eyes to the most aggregious sin ie... the corruption of the souls of children.

With that said, please listen to this Bishop and tell me what you think.

 

If I may speak for myself as a Baptistic Christian, one that totally believes in the uniqueness in our belief system, I personally do not believe that most ex-Catholics belong as members of a true Baptist Church. I could justify that statement but believe that would derail the OP

I would agree with this Bishop that it is Catholic laiety that has to step up to effect positive change... perhaps even transformation, God willing. Will they gather together, pressure the Catholic hiarchy and get it done is the real question... I kinda doubt it.

 

MY question is if they knew how could they continue to trust in them on spiritual matters (or any matters) knowing that?

 

And you are right, one could not trust the particular person guilty of this on any level with such a wholesale violation of Christian principles. However, there are bad apples in every barrel and one should not equate the whole with the actions of a few.

I myself have had some good experiences with Catholic religious in the past 20 years. I have had a nun as a friend, a sweet and holy woman of God and 2 priests who led different parishes who were on fire for the Lord.

There is a movement afoot now with these latest revelations by the faithful to see the church cleaned up and there are several Bishop's from around the country who are also making the call for something to be done. The leaders of the Catholic Church work for us, they need to serve others as Christ served and there had better be some resignations or the leadership will not hear the end of it.

 

We shall see. This could be what broke the camel's back, i.e. Pope Francis lifting the sanctions on Cardinal McCarrick that had been placed on him by Pope Benedict. The Church is the people, not the leadership, and we have to make sure that things are turned around and I think the laity will not rest until things have been put right. Just about all of Catholic media is on the case, so it won't go away. Plus, there has already been a call for a special synod to be held to deal with this matter and I just do not believe that status quo will be tolerated - too many people are up in arms about this.

 

Unfortunately I remain a skeptic. I have been hearing this now since the scandal at St. Joseph’s parish In Mendam NJ in 2000. They shuffled some of clergy around, sent some to prison but then same old same old. My old home town RCC had a active homosexual as pastor serving mass for 20 years for heaven sakes

 

When I came into the Catholic Church one of my concerns were the abuse. Having children myself and not knowing the priest well, I kept a close eye on them. Here are my simple thoughts. First is my experiences, even on the mission field, is that men and women still have a proclivity towards sin. Just because one is involved in ministry doesn't change that fact. Not all give in to sin but there will be those who do. I had no illusions that the same would be true of the Catholic Church. The problem with this scandal in the Catholic Church is exasperated by a few things. As, I say these things keep in mind they are my personal observation and thoughts. First, the majority (though not all) of the abuse of young people were perpetrated by homosexual men. I think there is a cabal of homosexual men that have infiltrated the Church and have been working hard in an attempt to change the magisterium to be accepting of this behavior which the church has consistently taught throughout history is disordered and sinful to engage in. In order to protect their group and people who think like them they have used the institution to from seminaries to moving priest around to recruit more homosexuals and to protect those involved in these scandals. Another issue is that there are clergy who are bishops, cardinals, etc.. who are political animals and I question their personal faith. They seem more like our politicians ready to go to extreme lengths to protect themselves and their reputation. These have participated in the scandal as well. The next thing I think is that there is a natural tendency of generational Catholics to put clergy members on a pedestal. This complicates the issues because in their minds the priests can do no wrong. This of course is fallacious because popes, bishops, and priest are men just like us with the same struggles of sin. Some of these men do not have what Catholics call "supernatural faith" or what a protestant would call being "born again". Fortunately, for me the Bishops I have met and he priest I have met are not like these other men I've just described. When the Scandal broke in Pa, I wasn't surprised but it really didn't challenge my faith because my faith is based on Jesus Christ and his righteousness. Not the righteousness of men. Men betray, sin, and do all sorts of evil. That is why we need Jesus Christ. His grace delivers us from that and leads us to be like himself. Catholics who feel betrayed, I think, must ask themselves this question: "What do you base your faith in? Is it Jesus Christ or these men." If it is in Jesus Christ then your faith shouldn't be shaken. If in these men then you are subject to their proclivities. If you say "I believe in the Church" then I ask "which Church?" If you say "Catholic Church" then I must ask you what you mean do you mean? The trappings you find in the institutional aspect of the Church or the supernatural church which spans both this world and the next." Because if your faith does not stretch beyond the poor behaviors of such men I question where you have put your faith. Or if you do indeed have faith, (I'm saying "you" in the general sense). Because, if you don't have faith then why be Catholic unless it is to gain faith. Another issue I find is that many Catholics have put off their personal faith and practice of it on the back burner only to allow the "religious" do the "heavy lifting" for them. This is an opportunity for Catholics to realize that they I need to take personal responsibility for their faith and that of their family rather than treating religious education classes like a day care for kids and not take it upon myself to follow through with daily prayers, scripture reading, and keeping up that relationship with our lord. Why stay? You need Jesus. But if Jesus is secondary then you're not really Catholic and why stay? Many disciples left Jesus. I don't recall him chasing down people. He invites them to be his disciples and then leave the choice to them to follow him or not. This might seem harsh of me and it is my own thoughts. This post is really targeted to Catholics rather than Baptist but I think many denominations could probably relate. Finally, the majority of clergy I have met I believe to be men of faith and they do not have these issues following them. I find many faith filled Catholics as well. My above observation is a minority in my personal experience. As far as Bishop Barron. I say stop encouraging people to stay but to evangelize people to be converted to Christ.

 

As bad as this sexual situation jhas been with the RCC, the theology that damns sinners is still far more pressing need to repent of anf change!

 

Yea, I like that whole post Thinking Stuff, especially the last statement... good job! :Thumbsup

 

That’s not going to happen

 

I know, and that is why those who are redeemed need to flee out from among them!

 

I think sinners damn themselves which is why they are called to repentance.

 

As far as the Priest's comments in the video, calling for the people to stand up against the Leadership, how has that worked out for the people in the past? Even when Priest from within stood up against them, what was their demise? The RCC cannot and will not be "fixed". For it to be fixed would be for a Pope to stand in front of the cameras and declare 'believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and ye shall be saved, believe not and ye shall be condemned'. This will never happen, what will happen is God will use the RCC to usher in the Antichrist, for it will take a Pope to cause the people to worship a man on earth showing great signs and wonders who comes in Peace and claims to be the Christ. The Pope will say yea and the people will do as they are told. As born again Christians the most we can do is warn people and try to persuade them to come out from her before it is too late.

 

I have been attempting to discern Catholicism’s worth in today’s world, what is salvageable and why in this USA do people still insist on Catholic teaching as the chosen church. Really I can comprehend “Contemplativeness” as a ligit reason to commit to the Catholic Way.

Richard Roth, O.F.M., in his many writings & teachings on the contemplative stance (see below) has helped me understand that.

The Christian Contemplative Tradition
Sunday, September 16, 2018

Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy have a long tradition of teaching contemplation or nondual consciousness. But its systematic teaching was primarily held in the Eastern “Greek” church; the Western “Latin” church was more extroverted and aligned with empires.

Serious contemplative teaching—very upfront in the desert fathers and mothers—is surely found in Celtic Christianity (outside of empire), and is continued by leaders of many monasteries, for example, by John Cassian (360–435 CE), Pseudo-Dionysius (5th–6th centuries), and Hugh of St. Victor (1096–1141) in Paris. Later mystics like Bonaventure (1221–1274), Francisco de Osuna (1497–1541), the unknown author of The Cloud of Unknowing (late 14th century), and 16th century mystics Teresa of Ávila (1515–1582) and John of the Cross (1542–1591) also taught nondual consciousness. It held on much longer in the religious orders than the ordinary local church or with the common priest or bishop—whose ministry was an occupation more than a search for God or a “school for the Lord’s service,” as St. Benedict (480–547) described. [1]

Most Western mystics exemplified contemplation, as did Jesus, much more than they directly taught it. Maybe this is part of the reason many Christians lost it, and why good theological teaching and practice is now so important today. After the fights of the Reformation, and after the over-rationalization of the 17th and 18th century Enlightenment, many of us Western Christians became very defensive, wanting to prove we were smart and could win arguments with the new secularism. We imitated the rationalists while using pious Christian vocabulary. It took the form of heady Scholasticism and rote formulas in Catholicism, and led to fundamentalism and memorized Scripture verses providing their own kind of “rationalism” among many Protestants.

Catholic doctrines (such as transubstantiation, papal infallibility, and hierarchical authority) came to be presented in a largely academic and juridical way (or, for the sacraments, with an almost magical interpretation), as opposed to a contemplative or mystical way. Frankly, all of this inspired few and drove many away from Christianity. Most priests were educated this way until the much-needed reforms of Vatican II in the 1960s. Thomas Merton (1915–1968) was very influential in reintroducing contemplation to the West. Now it is again taught in Christian arenas all over the world under different names.

What we now call contemplation—a unique way of knowing—is a rediscovery of our earlier Christian practice. Basically, contemplation is the way you know and think of yourself when you are sincerely praying and present—as opposed to thinking, arguing, or proving.

As Archbishop Rowan Williams, former leader of the Anglican Church, told the Synod of Catholic Bishops in Rome:

Contemplation is very far from being just one kind of thing that Christians do: it is the key to prayer, liturgy, art and ethics, the key to the essence of a renewed humanity that is capable of seeing the world and other subjects in the world with freedom—freedom from self-oriented, acquisitive habits and the distorted understanding that comes from them. To put it boldly, contemplation is the only ultimate answer to the unreal and insane world that our financial systems and our advertising culture and our chaotic and unexamined emotions encourage us to inhabit. To learn contemplative practice is to learn what we need so as to live truthfully and honestly and lovingly. It is a deeply revolutionary matter. [2]

Despite centuries without systematic teaching of nondual consciousness, many seekers have now come to contemplation as the fruit of great suffering or great love. These are the quickest and most universal ways that God uses to destabilize the self-referential ego. Those transformed by life and grace come to enjoy the presence of God, others, and even themselves. They have connected with their deepest Source, an identity that goes far beyond ideas of right and wrong.

Great suffering, great love, and contemplative practice can instill in us “the same mind which is in Christ Jesus” (see Philippians 2:5-11, 4:4-7, and 1 Corinthians 2 and 3). Indeed, I believe contemplative, nondual consciousness is the mind of Christ.

 

What power specifically are you referring to?

 

And here we go with the Catholic Church and the anti-Christ charge one again! You folks are like a broken record. Kerplunk, kerplunk, kerplunk - the same old spin. Come on , can't you come up with something new to entertain us?

 

Thank you for your observation. I myself spent 8 years attending a Catholic grade school and there was not one incident of clerical abuse of children - and we had like 6 or 7 priests in the parish no less! In my adult life after my return to the Catholic Church at age 28 I have met nothing but true and holy people, the members of religious communities, who have dedicated their entire lives to the Lord.

All the stuff now happening constitutes but a minority of those in the Church which is why the windows and doors need to be opened wide for a thorough airing and we the faithful are not afraid in the least to see this happen. When some paedophilia or homosexuality happens in other Christian denominations little is made of it, but oh boy, when it happens in the Catholic faith tradition it's Katy bar the door for all the hubbub that is generated amongst the press and other Christians.

 

Thats because most Baptist & Protestants today dont like the RCC. You are the target for criticism even though if you dig down far enough you will often find corruption & disgrace in their own church system. Irregardless, if one seeks to understand religion as a whole it is set up by flawed people so yea your going to get that element of corruption each time, its not avoidable.

But we hear many bad things about the RCC so I would venture to ask, Whats so good about them? Ya know what, dont even answer me ..... but the next time one of these hecklers confronts you with conserns like satans running the RCC, It would be nice to see one of you actually defend the RCC.

 

Ya know, here is a guy I liked & would listen to him, not always agree but he spoke with authority & with a sencethat Catholism had worth towards the Kingdom.

He was flawed though & they eventually removed him from the priesthood. Could you image, a real flesh & blood man being removed while the likes of McCarrick ...... ?!? :mad:

1st. allow these men some normalcy...IE let them marry.
2nd Get ridof all (practicing) homosexuals in the RCC. There is no place for them to co-exist in a Christian run church.