Some of you guys are painting too broadly.
Here's my seminary experience...for me in seminary my schedule was (almost every semester):
7 am-10 am: class
10am-12:30pm: lunch and errands ("life stuff" like shopping, bank, etc.); study
1-2 pm: Exercise and read; quiet time
2:30-3pm get ready for work
3pm-1am: leave for work (1 hour away); work; come back
1am-2am: Study (and on saturdays most of the day)
I was newly married at the time and also serving at a church (Sundays and Wed. nights).
It's the busiest I've ever been in my life.
I also spent a lot of time with God, and sat under good preaching in my preaching classes, evangelism classes, and my church's pastor. And on occasion, when something or someone I really wanted to hear was going on, I'd give up my study or lunch, re-organize, and go to chapel.
I didn't have an extra hour to spend with ANYONE. And if I did, it would be my wife, who didn't see me enough, and was struggling with depression.
Yep, I made mistakes then. But going to daily chapel, if on the list at all, is near the bottom. I should have taken better care of my wife, and myself.
I don't like seeing some of the condemnation from some posts. If you've got folks that don't like to worship then there's a problem. But some of us seminary folks were hanging on by a thread. Daily chapel was simply less important than many other things. I don't fault those who do at all. But I could not and I'm no less spiritual than the "daily chapel attenders."
Required chapel in Seminary
Discussion in 'Baptist Colleges & Seminaries' started by bobbyd, Sep 5, 2006.
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The quesiton I have is a seminary a church or is it an academic institution. I know that it is somewhat of a fine line, as students are preparing to be missionaries, pastors, music, education, childrens youth ministers etc. I would think that Chapel attendance be encouraged - and then make it welcoming for the students - and respect thier time. Currently Chapel at SWBTS exceeds and hour most days, it is no wonder that the students have problems with mandatory chapel!.
I think that it should be madatory that a student be a member and be required to take part in the ministry of a local church. The problem with requirng chapel is that many of not most of the students work outside jobs and are on campus for a short period of time, many times they need to study or meet with a professor.
As an aside, at SWBTS students get a certain number of cuts - the chapel is almost vacant at the end of the semester! For some reason, Paige is working real hard to get a new chapel built - what a gigantic waste of money. -
However, I would say that i think you were the exception and not the rule. I could name you countless examples of guys (and some gals) I knew in seminary that did nothing productive at all during the chapel time. Well I mean unless you count playing pool or shooting the breeze at Starbucks as productive.
It is just like anything else we make time for what is important. If chapel is important then you make time for it. It was important to me so I made time for it inspite of serving full time as a pastor, having a family at home and all of my studies as well. That does not make me more or less spiritual than anyone else, I just happened to enjoy chapel and quite frankly I enjoyed being at a worship service where I could just be a part of the crowd and not have to be center stage. -
At SBTS, if you are in a class that requires chapel attendence, you can miss 6 out of 24.
You walk into your 8am preaching class and your topic for the day is the role of preaching. The professor stands at the front of the class and discusses how the Apostles preached, and similarities between the Hebrew prophets and todays role of preacher. He exhorts you to not allow your congregation to leave the sermon thinking "I'm going to make sure I'm not prideful like Samson" but to instead think "Apart from Jesus I'm just like every sinner listed in the Bible."
You go home later and do the reading for that class and there have that author discuss in much more depth the need for life changing preaching through the blood of Jesus.
Then you attend an 11:30 class on the exegesis of Galatians. There you are discussing the fruit of the flesh vs the fruit of the Spirit, and how the fruit of the Spirit is not something you set your mind to, but something that God does through His spirit in the life of a believer.
Over lunch you are discussing how someone's life is transformed. Sitting at your table is a classmate and a professor. Everyone agrees that too often we wind up thinking that we just need to be moral, or we need to set our mind on doing what's right, as opposed to meditating on Christ and allowing the Spirit to minister to us.
The next day you go to chapel and have a denominational big wig preaching. He takes his passage as the David and Bathsheba account. He talks about how David shouldn't have been looking, and how he shouldn't have acted, and how many pastors will ruin their lives by doing the wrong thing. Everything he says is true, but based on your lectures, reading and conversations, you think "Surely this isn't just a counter-example of how to live my life?!?!" Then you think about how the passage points to the fact that David, the promised king of Israel fell. The Jews put their hope in him, afterall, Saul has killed his thousands, but David his 10,000s. And yet the one that they put their hope in was not the promissed Messiah. But Messiah is coming who will be unlike this earthly king who could not control his lusts.
Do you walk out of that chapel service encouraged to not commit adultery? Or do you walk out discouraged because a lot of the counter examples you thought of over the last few days have just been demonstrated by an up-and-coming denominational hero?
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Almost every student I talk to describes the above situation as why they quit going to chapel. I know of very few who say they are too busy to go, or have to work (and in deed, those get exceptions from profs.)
I'm not talking about not having preachers who are world famous. I'm talking about watching DA Carson's Exegetical Fallacies played out in front of your face.
And to SBTS' credit, I think they've done something really good. They want people to be in chapel. They require it for some classes. And starting this semester, Dr. Mohler will preach in chapel 12 times this year (about 1/4th of all services.) This makes sense to me. I know he's busy, but almost every student at SBTS appreciates Mohler's work and his ability to exegete the scriptures. Now, if they could get Russ Moore to preach another 1/4th we'd be set :laugh:
But SBTS listened to their students. They sent out a survey a year+ ago and among other things asked about the chapel services. The speakers have been changed, I assume in part because of the survey. -
Nate, I think you make some valid points. However, you raise an important question: What is the motivation for attending chapel? Is it an act of worship? Or is it an act of learning what to or not to do in ministry/preaching/etc?
If it is an act of learning then as you say people will get frustrated and quit going. However, should it not be an act of worship? Do not the same guys ask their church members to attend as an act of worship? Is it ok for pastors to not attend chapel because they are not getting what "they need" but yet be upset with the same attitude from their church members? -
I guess I'm just wanting folks to make sure that we don't condemn a whole group of folks for something...until we know the whole story (like mine).
I would add these thoughts as well:
-corporate worship should not take the place of private devotion...if you attend daily chapel and neglect your personal time with God, you're missing out.
-there will always be tension at seminaries. What do you require? At what point do you allow the grown-ups to be grown-ups? At what point do you step in because the grown-ups ain't grown up?
We'll always be walking the tightrope between accountability and fostering personal responsibility. Too much of one leads to future ministers with poor standards; too much of the other fosters autocratic pharasaism. Just check out some of the threads regarding seminaries--questions about mandatory church membership & attendance, "soul-winning quotas," mandatory chapel--it's a tightrope. Sometimes I lean law, and other times I lean grace. -
The best preaching I heard in seminary was in OT survey, Hebrew, NT Survey and Greek. Most of the chapel sermons were passionless by comparison.
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I prefer my posts to be identified as more cynical than "shrill".
Though I have yet to get a satisfying answer from those who want to excuse or condone the missing of chapel. Or explain why chapel has become mandatory when I assume it has not always been such.
And why would someone go to a college/seminary to learn how to be a christian pastor/teacher/counsellor/educator if they disagree with what is being preached or taught??
I attend Liberty University online. I don't have issues with their doctrine but as an IFB-er I take issue with other issues but none of them are disqualifiers; especially since I don't have to physically attend the campus or sit under their preaching...I get that from my local church. Though if I "went away" to college/seminary...Liberty would not be a place I would even consider going to.
So I wonder why people would choose a seminary/college that they have known issues with? Or once they figure out that they have issue then why stay?
And back to items I mentioned in my first two points: 1) how can we expect our lay people who have busy lives to be faithful to one or three services a week when we who are to be held to a higher standard and responsibility try to get out of going to services (i.e. chapel)??
2) how can we expect this next generation of preachers/teachers/etc to lead our churches when they have no joy in chapel while going through seminary? What will become of the depth/status of our churches?? When will it be applied to us "that we have left our first love"? -
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I have no problem with the statement, "seminarians should go to chapel if they can. I have problems with folks that don't understand that 4-5 extra hours per week simply weren't available. I wish I had done better with my priorities during those years--but not to go to chapel every day. I should have studied more in the daytime and hugged my wife more late at night, on Saturdays, and in the morning hours.
I'm having a ball doing ministry now, and my conscience is clear. -
preachinjesus Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
here's most of it:
6-7 am daily discplines
8-10 am - two classes (Tues-Thurs, Mon 1 class)
10-5 - work
5-6 eat
6-9 class (1 Tues, 1 Thurs)
I was actively involved with a local church plant, unpaid staff, and had a regular digest of podcasts and ministry downloads during a given week.
As I sat through a chapel led by the school of music of my esteemed seminary I realized why no students could stand the chapels. Then the pastor who grew his church from 100 to 1500+ got up and waxed directly into problems described in Exegetical Fallacies (aforementioned.) Besides true ministry success isn't in numbers. Why go when I am celebrating worship daily privately and a number of times weekly corporately (I still have no clue why churches meet on Sunday nights.) I sit underneath great scholars, learning God's Word and learning how to handle God's Word.
Personally I needed to be a good steward of the opportunity God gave me to attend a seminary. Therefore I needed to work in a job which supported my seminary (habit I guess...lol) and allowed me to get out in a proper time frame.
I don't get how going to a service fifteen times a week translates into spirituality or spiritual maturation. Some of the most carnal Christians I've ever met showed up at every service, sat, soaked and never gave a flip about the lost and dying world beyond their driveway. Who are we to question the spiritual path of someone who is actively engaging the depths of their faith, growing by leaps and bounds, and sharing Christ reguarly who can't always make it to an auxilary service? Who are we to compliment the carnal Christian who is completely apathetic to the depths of spirituality, about 2 years old spiritually, couldn't care about the lost, yet still shows up at every service because it's what they've done? Our whole view of "What is Christianly" really needs to get adjusted. :) -
Yes, and before any accuse me of self-righteousness...let me say I know I often fail in my practice but this mindset is what I strive for and what I think we as Christians are directed to strive for.
Understand I'm not attacking anyone in particular and can empathize with the various situations but I have questioned not the individual circumstances but the attitude behind not attending chapel or the need that a seminiary feels it needs to have a "mandatory chapel" policy now. I enjoy being around church and don't know anything else and I understand that for us as full-time ministers this is a joy, a love that God has put in us (or should have put there) to be servants. I understand that our lay people probably don't have the same joy and easy fall into the rut of "time-for-church-again" and so when one decides/surrenders to go into ministry and goes to seminary you would think that the joy would be a little bit different. But from my understanding of the intent of the original post (and a few others) this intent seems to be that chapel is a waste of time or does not feed me enough, or I don't like this speaker, etc...instead of I enjoy chapel because I learn about my wonderful Savior and Heavenly Father!!
I probably won't be accused of agreeing with PASTORSBC1303 very often on the BB...but I totally agree with him on this subject matter and the sadness of the starbucks crowd and those who purposely escape from chapel as if it is some chore or hated drudgery. I would never want to attempt to clarifiy someone's spiritual walk or classify it with a certain physical sign...but the Bible tells us what we should be doing and our attitude while doing it. I know that you can serve God without loving Him but you can't love God and not be serving Him!! -
Incidentally, Dr. Ward is still alive and well. He spoke with great affection and eloquence at my mother-in-law's memorial service in July. -
Besides chapel most seminaries offer a great many extra-curricular ministries. Each is someone's way of serving God. I'll go out on a limb and say that you probably did not participate in every one that was offered, did you? Does that mean you loved Christ less?
I'll admit that my thoughts were the same as yours when I learned that the a seminary had to have a mandatory church participation policy, but there is a huge difference between the local church and the daily chapel service. -
Shame on you for insinuating I have a half-hearted commitment to my Lord and Savior.
How dare you liken my not attending enough chapels to meet with your approval to Jesus forsaking the cross.
You owe me an apology, but I doubt I see one. -
bell,
self-righteousness and legalism can be hurtful, but try to take his comments with a grain of salt. be glad you're not a part of his congregation, and pray for grace to deal with people in a more Christlike manner than he has here. -
You all have taking my remarks to personally and have missed my point all along! -
I clearly said my comment above was unfair and I only wrote it in response to what seemed to be a number of excuses (and not just Rbell's) of not having enough time, but in reality we often say we don't enough time but it is more often (not always the case) but more often it is because we don't make the time.
Now understand I'm not attacking or accusing anyone...this is my experience and testimony: I remember when I was backslidden and barely going to church on Sunday morning faithfully that I would often make excuses such as I had to work late...but over the last few years as I resurrendered my life and got back in God's path I noticed that even if I worked late and was 30 or 40 mins late for church I still try and usually attend the service because now I want to be there and even if I only get to participate for 30 mins or so instead of the usual hour or so...it is more than worth it!! What is the difference? More spirituallity? Trust me it is not because the more I study the Word the more I find I don't know it enough and definitely don't live it like I should...the difference is my attitude! That is why I said that we can do things (mandatory or volunteer) that look like we are serving God whether we truly have a love for that service or not...but we cannot love God and not be willing in our service!
I wholeheartedly apologize if my remarks have been taken personal...I never attended for my words to attack another and never meant to imply I was judging anyone or their spiritual walk!! I say bless all of us who have stumbled and learned from our mistakes and have not repeated them. Because it is only by/through the GRACE OF GOD!!
Rbell, as one who took my posting as personal attacks..please know that they were not directed at you alone (as an individual poster) but as one of many in this thread that I felt was focusing on the symptom of the problem and not the root...our seminiaries are full of attitudes nowadays that seem to have no care for the things of God because God's business has become "big marketable business". We all know that we learned alot in our training but we have also learned that the classroom doesn't always match up to real life...good or bad!! And so I again say may God continue to bless our faithfulness in doing His work! -
thank you for your clarification, MRC. Good day and God bless.
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