At what point (if ever) do Christians have the right (or permission) to rise up against the established government?
Jefferson said "rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God." Obviously that isn't scripture but I wonder if anyone can support that? Personally I don't see anything that would allow it in scripture but I have been wrong before...
I ask because with the current political climate some co-workers of mine and posters on other boards have discussed the possibilities of civil unrest/rebellion in the US.
I am NOT interested in opinions of whether or not a rebellion in the US could ever succeed or even if it will happen, just wondering what kind of justification either side can use for Christians fighting or not in a rebellion. :thumbs:
Right to rebel?
Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by RLBosley, Feb 26, 2013.
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This is a really good subject to discuss. Let's start with Romans 13
Or, does this passage relate to the culture in which Paul wrote, where there were only kings, emperors and Caesars. Democracy, if it existed at all in the first century, was rare. (Some of you history buffs may know of one).
Or, can it be argued that the American Revolution was ordained by God? It seems obvious that the occupation of the Promised Land, and the overthrowing of the established powers by the Jews, was, in fact, God's plan and will.
Okay, what do you think? Release the hounds. -
Where I start to have a problem with it though is with increasingly oppressive government; Say a government is for whatever reason systematically killing people but for the most part leaving Christians alone. Do believers have a right or even an obligation to stop that sins murder is sin or must they remain submissive?
Was it right for the colonies to rebel against England? Well the American patriot in me says (Screams :laugh:) "You're darn right!" But did they really have Biblical support for their actions? I'm hesitant to say it but I don't think so...
When it comes to the Jews conquering Canaan I view that as international warfare not rebellion for 2 reasons: 1, the Jews were not residents of the area so couldn't really be called rebels. 2, The Jews were already considered a nation by God (established as a country governed by laws at Sinai) just a country without a land. -
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Whether one uses weapons to overthrow, or simply refuses to obey, those things have repercussions and they are rebelling against authority. That being said, if you want to talk only about the kind of rebellion that involves the rebels using force, then you have to go back to the O.T. when Joshua crossed over Jordan to take the land. -
Not just refuse to obey but to directly, forcefully oppose. I see them as different anyway. Regardless, the question I asked was when, if ever, do Christians have the right to take up arms against the established government?
I wouldn't consider Joshua leading Israel into Canaan as an example of rebellion. They were overthrowing the governments of the area yes, but that was international war - conflict between nations - as Israel was at that point a nation already just w/o a land. And even if we would consider that a rebellion, we are Christians in a new dispensation and not under the Old Covenant. -
Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Wasn't the revolutionary war a bunch of rebels fighting against England?
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REBEL', v.i. [L. rebello, to make war again; re and bello.]
1. To revolt; to renounce the authority of the laws and government to which one owes allegiance. Subjects may rebel by an open renunciation of the authority of the government, without taking arms; but ordinarily, rebellion is accompanied by resistance in arms.
Ye have built you an altar, that ye might rebel this day against the Lord. Josh 22. Isa 1.
2. To rise in violent opposition against lawful authority.
How could my hand rebel against my heart? How could your heart rebel against your reason?
Let's cut to the chase. Are you saying, like some Christians do, btw, that the
American Revolution was a sinful act against God? If so, then were runaway slaves sinning against God? Did Abraham Lincoln, sin against God when he suspended habeas corpus two months after taking office? Is Obama sinning against God when he violates one of our most sacred documents that is the very rule of law that keeps us a civilized nation; that being the Constitution? I say he is, and if he takes it too far, then we are headed for another civil war, imo. -
Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
America is founded on the idea that when the government has become tyrannical then it may become time to revolt. Because that is the founding of this country and the core of our very existence then we can understand that in our Republic our government does not get to rule in a tyrannical way. This idea is seen in the 2nd amendment.
Therefore because this is how our government works and is set up any Christian who revolts when the American government becomes tyrannical and there are no other options then we are good.
It is the very reason Obama and his ilk want to make useless the 2nd amendment. -
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For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil.
There's your blue paw print clue. If the rulers ARE a terror to good works, then these verses don't apply in that situation. -
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Heb 13:6-7
(6) So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.
(7) Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
Jesus came to be King and He was, but not in the ways of men. As we are told, times change and there is a season for all things. I never see God’s people being told to accept things as they are indefinitely or to remain as second class citizens, but rather not to fear what men may do unto you and to consider the end of the conversation. We have many guidelines and examples to follow throughout scripture regarding how men and God deal with things. Although we are told of peace and love for our enemies we are also shown that God’s ways of love often can involve strong resistance or even aggression against those who would do evil and pervert His ways.
Even in considering the end of the conversation, Jesus’ passive ways of being here and examples of accomplishing His purposes we should not forget that we are told He is coming back and in doing so that we better not get caught “in bed with the Devil of this world” and He will be meaning business!
I ramble, but the end of the conversation for me is that Jesus didn’t give undue respect or obedience to the rulers in this world and neither should I. There could come a point, for me (not only by right but by obligation as a good servant), that after prayerfully considering all things that I would be inclined to take whatever measures necessary to stand against the oppressive tyrannical ways of spreading evil in this world for the good.
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And I agree that if Barry keeps pushing we may see rebellion or civil war. I'm just wondering if it would be justified for a Christian to be a part of it. Still not sure.
I just think that looking at the church under Roman rule there was much more cause for the apostles to lead an open rebellion against the establishment than we could here. Especially since the apostles were persecuted for their faith directly. We really have no idea what that is like in the US. People make a snide remark about us or church and we think it's persecution, we honestly don't have a clue. I really don't think we have an 'excuse' just by saying BO or whoever the next unpopular president will be is "taking away our country/constitution".
So yeah... hope i didn't put anyone to sleep with my rambling... :sleep: -
Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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I now see your point and it is interesting. I'll have to think on that. Thanks!
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