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Featured "Righteous faith"

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Dec 31, 2022.

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  1. unprofitable

    unprofitable Active Member

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    Thanks for the reply Bro Marprelate. If this needs to be a separate post that will be fine.

    I agree with your point of faith toward and in respect of Christ

    There still seems to be a distinction between the "faith in Christ" and "faith of Christ" with the faith of Christ being that he believed what the Father had said he would accomplish in and for him as making him King of kings and lord of Lords and our faith in Christ being that he would accomplish what he has said in his covenant and promises that he would do for us as his people.

    The faith of Christ toward the Father that you spoke of in Romans 5:19 would precede the obedience unto the Father. I don't believe they can be separated.

    Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, according as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith. Here it says that God has dealt/given us the measure of faith that we have. Whose faith is being given to us by the Father? This also would seem to point to Matt 13:8 that says "But others fell unto good ground and brought forth fruit, some an hundred fold, some sixty fold, some thirty fold." This would be according to the measure of faith given us.

    Since we are given the life, righteousness, and mind of Christ, why would it seem strange to have been given the faith of Christ in regard to believing what he would do for us covenantly as to a kingdom teaching? We see through the life of Christ in us, the work of Christ, that we might believe in Christ.

    I believe my post concerning the mustard seed would be an example of the faith of Christ, as a type of particular doctrinal understanding necessary to cast down the destroying mountain contained in types and shadows of the law. We believe that he has overcome by the type of faith that he had, not of the kingdom according to the law, but according to the faith of Christ as a new covenant teaching. Have you ever seen a body of Christ literally cast a mountain into the sea? I have in the context of casting out the doctrines of the law in types and shadows and pronouncing the fulfilling of the law by Christ thereby taking it out of the way. I have a difficult time believing that was by my faith or understanding.

    I hope I have showed why I believe that there is a distinction in some cases. I appreciate and look forward to your reply.
     
  2. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Vanology is not hate speech. Vanology is a coined word for a theology that Van has created, which no one else believes.
     
  3. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Forgive me for starting at the end of your post, but I want to say up front that I agree with you here.
    My Greek is pretty shaky and was learned a long time ago, but I recall that the Genitive in Greek has at least nine different usages, and two of them are the 'Ablative' uses of 'from' and 'by.' How do we know which meaning to apply in any given case? By the context, and by comparing Scripture with Scripture. But in John 8:26 and John 8:40, it is quite correct to use 'from Him' and 'from God' respectively, as the NKJV does and which gives the meaning that you are thinking of. I firmly believe that the Christian's faith is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8 etc.).

    But when we come to something like the 'fear of God' [phobos theou] (Romans 3:18 etc.), that really has to be man's fear towards God, an Objective Genitive. Who would God be afraid of? And in the case of pistis theou, 'faith of God,' what does God have faith in? Does He not know all things?

    I hope that's helpful. I can't give as much time as I'd like to this because I have a number of sermons to give in the next few weeks and some church meetings to lead, so I hope you'll forgive me if I leave it there for now.
     
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yet another denial of the obvious, here for the second time is what I wrote:
    Here is what I said: Is Isaiah 54:17 germane? The "servants of the Lord" refers to those who sought the Lord. Thus this verse supports that the lost can seek the Lord. "And their victory is from Me" refers to the Lord;s justification in light of false charges hurled against them.

    I have addressed Philippians 1:29 and the bogus interpretation of some many times. They were allowed to believe and suffer. The verse does not say nor suggest "their righteousness and faith is of [instilled by] Me." And obviously the 4th soil of Matthew 13 was not regenerated before hearing the gospel. That is an outrageous fiction concocted to hide truth.

    Faith is like a mustard seed, though small it has the power to replicate its kind, thus our faith in Christ will produce Christ like attributes and attitudes

    There is no need to rewrite, "his faith" as "God's faith instilled by irresistible grace."

    Just read Romans 4:23-25
     
  5. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Read the passages (all from the ESV which many Baptist churches use) and see if our resident contrarian is right. Do any of these verses make the point of the OP? I say no.

    *Isaiah 54:11-17*
    “O afflicted one, storm-tossed and not comforted, behold, I will set your stones in antimony, and lay your foundations with sapphires. I will make your pinnacles of agate, your gates of carbuncles, and all your wall of precious stones. All your children shall be taught by the Lord, and great shall be the peace of your children. In righteousness you shall be established; you shall be far from oppression, for you shall not fear; and from terror, for it shall not come near you. If anyone stirs up strife, it is not from me; whoever stirs up strife with you shall fall because of you. Behold, I have created the smith who blows the fire of coals and produces a weapon for its purpose. I have also created the ravager to destroy; no weapon that is fashioned against you shall succeed, and you shall refute every tongue that rises against you in judgment. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord and their vindication from me, declares the Lord.”

    *Philippians 1:27-30*
    Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel, and not frightened in anything by your opponents. This is a clear sign to them of their destruction, but of your salvation, and that from God. For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, engaged in the same conflict that you saw I had and now hear that I still have.

    *Matthew 13:3-9*
    And he told them many things in parables, saying: “A sower went out to sow. And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them. Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away. Other seeds fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them. Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. He who has ears,let him hear.”

    Notice, below, that the promise came first.

    *Romans 4:13-25*
    For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

    The reader can determine if Van has any credibility by using the verses he used.
     
  6. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Thanks for your reply. I do not claim anything I just post what comes to my mind when I read the word of God. Not even trying to convince anyone of anything, just stating my understanding.

    Again thanks
     
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  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Still yet another off topic post addressing my behavior, a clear cut violation of posting rules, with nary a word about the topic.

    Here is what I said, for the third time!

    Is Isaiah 54:17 germane? The "servants of the Lord" refers to those who sought the Lord. Thus this verse supports that the lost can seek the Lord. "And their victory is from Me" refers to the Lord;s justification in light of false charges hurled against them.

    I have addressed Philippians 1:29 and the bogus interpretation of some many times. They were allowed to believe and suffer. The verse does not say nor suggest "their righteousness and faith is of [instilled by] Me." And obviously the 4th soil of Matthew 13 was not regenerated before hearing the gospel. That is an outrageous fiction concocted to hide truth.

    Faith is like a mustard seed, though small it has the power to replicate its kind, thus our faith in Christ will produce Christ like attributes and attitudes

    There is no need to rewrite, "his faith" as "God's faith instilled by irresistible grace."

    Just read Romans 4:23-25
     
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I see that some are claiming God credits the faith He previously instilled via Irresistible Grace, as being righteous faith, i.e. faith credited as righteousness. Good Grief, what nonsense.

    Have any of the "gift of faith" posters even admitted God credits the faith of believers per Romans 4:23-25? Nope, not one.
    Have any of the "gift of faith" posters even admitted that to be saved by grace through faith means God utilized faith existing before salvation? Nope, not one.
     
  9. unprofitable

    unprofitable Active Member

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    How can the lost seek God without the Holy Spirit's guidance or understanding? Quite a stretch my brother. Is the justification of Isa 54:17 without the righteousness of Christ, the Just One? We are justified BECAUSE we have the life of Christ in us. (Gal 2:20) It is his righteous life that we are given that enables us to be justified, (Leviticus 19:2, 1 Peter 1:16)) and walk in his commandments as we have been ordained to do. (Ephesians 2:10) Those in Isa 54:17 has already been justified and were being persecuted for the kingdom's sake. They were not lost alienated sinners. They were the remnant (seed) according to grace.

    In spite of the vast majority of translations of Philippians 1:29 agreeing with the KJV, you still want to pull from the few singular translations that empowers man rather than God. The translation you use says permitted. What was preventing them in the first place? If unbelief, then were they permitted to believe and if so, then is that not an act of God to justify and not the righteousness of man?

    You said read Romans 4:23-25. Let's back up a few verses. vs 18 Who against hope believed in hope, (this is a picture of Isaiah 54:17), that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be (Ye shall be holy, an holy nation). vs 2 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief but was strong in faith, giving glory to God, (a picture of Acts 13:48).
    vs 21 And being FULLY PERSUADED. How can we be FULLY persuaded without the work of the Holy Spirit upon the new heart?) that what he had promised (Gen 12:1-3 which included the gentile nations) he was able to perform. Vs 24 JUSTIFIED in Christ

    Abraham was made alive when or before God called him and Sarah out in Gen 12:1. The justification of Abraham's faith concerning the kingdom of God is exampled in that he did not believe the promise was given of the law but by through the righteousness of faith. His belief was shown to be a righteous act of a righteous man. He did not believe the promise to enter in was by trying to mix law and grace, which is what is seen in Matthew 13:3-7. He was not a double minded man (James 1:8) but was FULLY persuaded and would not turn back to the dung hill that Paul spoke of in Philippians 3:8 and of which Abraham came out. (Gen 12:1) This is the act of a man already made alive.

    Matthew 13:3-7 does show a people seeking God but in unbelief (Hebrews 4:2) and not in spirit and truth. (John 4:24) That is why many shall say in that day, Lord, Lord but will not be able to enter in because they were not FULLY PERSUADED, trying to serve both God and mammon in the context of the law (Matthew 6:24) and could not bring forth fruit unto righteousness by faith.
     
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    How can the lost seek God. Since the bible is full of examples of the lost seeking God, how could anyone deny it?
    Did anyone say God did not provide His revelation in order for the lost to seek and find God? Nope
    Since the LORD in Isaiah 54:17 refers at least in part to God the Son, of course the righteousness of the pre-incarnate Christ is in view. Of course the OT saints were not indwelt.
    Leviticus 19:2 does not say or suggest the OT saints had been made holy! Ditto for 1 Peter 1:16, it is a command to be holy.
    Ephesians 2:10 refers to born anew believers under the New Covenant, and therefore is non-germane to our faith existing as credited righteous faith before being chosen for salvation.
    No verse or passage says nor suggests Abraham was made alive spiritually before Christ's sacrifice on the cross. Zip

    I could go on, but since your post demonstrates a lack of biblical truth, and does not address the fact our faith is credited as righteous faith, there is no point.
     
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    A question to ask yourselves is "Does God credit the faith of some humans as righteous faith?" See Romans 4:4-5 and Romans 4:23-25.

    The answer of course is yes.

    How about does God ask fallen individuals to put their faith in Christ? See John 6:28-29

    The answer of course is yes.

    Does John 3:16 indicate everyone whose faith is credited as righteous faith will not perish?

    The answer of course is yes.
     
  12. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    The answer to your question is:
    All whom God has graciously chosen to save and give the gift of faith are credited with a righteous faith, precisely because that faith is untainted by our corrupt nature. It is holy and unblemished as a gift from God and it credits to us the very righteousness of God himself, which justifies us before God the Holy Judge.

    You are tiresome in your mischief, Van.
     
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  13. unprofitable

    unprofitable Active Member

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    1 Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come to you, (the gentiles)
    vs 11 searching what or what matter of time the Spirit of Christ WHICH WAS IN THEM did signify, when it did witness beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

    2 Peter 1:21 For the prophesy came not of old time by the will of man, but Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

    How can a man be holy without the life of Christ, the holy one of Israel, in them, as told in vs 11 and 21? The only conclusion to your contentions is that it can only be a man made righteousness. The spirit of Christ NEVER departed the righteousness remnant from the old Testament as evidence in Luke 3:23 when the seedline of Christ is traced all the way back to Adam, who was a son of God and if a son of God, then born from above and spiritually made alive. That seedline shows that the righteous seedline back to Adam is proof of the promise that God would never leave nor forsake his people but leave a remnant made holy by the Lord.

    Again, to my point of the lost needing the Holy Spirit to guide them is a proper seeking of salvation, not according to the law, but by grace. Did the Pharisees believe that the Messiah belonged to them and that they were the people of God and that they were righteous? Absolutely. But Matt 5:20 says For I say unto you, except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and the Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter the kingdom of heaven. We see this being a major key to understanding in Luke 11:52 and Matthew 13:3-7. They sought God not by the righteousness of faith but by the law. They did not seek God in spirit and truth. (John 4:23)

    Do not the muslims seek after God? Have they found Him? Did Israel seek after God? Isaiah 58:2 say "Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God; they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God." Did they not believe they were seeking the kingdom of God and His righteousness as Christ commanded them? (Matt 6:33) Yet they had not found him because they did not seek him in spirit (by the guidance of the spirit) and in truth.

    Ezekiel 8:18 Therefore will I also deal in fury; mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice (seeking God), yet WILL I NOT HEAR THEM. Why? Because they sought him by the works of the Law (Matt 13:3-7) and not faith.

    I do not deny the lost seek God but if it is after their vain imagination and not according to truth, not being guided by the Holy Spirit, which the world cannot receive (John 14:17), they will not find him.
     
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    If God instilled via Irresistible Grace, the "Gift of Faith" He would have to choose who to instill that faith in. However, since God utilizes righteous faith to choose individuals for salvation, the bogus view advocated by some is obviously bogus.
     
  15. unprofitable

    unprofitable Active Member

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    Why would God command his people to be holy but not give them the life of Christ by which they would be made alive and enabled to be holy by that very life. We are made holy by Christ that we might walk in his ways in the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The Lord does not command his people to do something then not enable them to do it. Keep it coming brother, I love it.
     
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The OT saints were able to strive to be holy, and that is what the Old Covenant asked them to do based on their faithfulness.
    No verse says nor suggests any OT saint was made alive together with Christ until after Christ sacrificed His life on the cross.
     
  17. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    You are putting the cart before the horse (man before God), Van. Thus I find your theology to be unsound.
     
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    One false charge after another, but never a quote to support the slander.

    Just read Romans 4:23-25 and ask what benefit do we receive if God credits our faith as righteousness?

    What did those credited with righteous faith believe?
    1) They believed in God who raised Jesus from the dead,
    2) They believed Jesus was delivered over for our wrongdoings,
    3) They believed Jesus was raised for our justification.
     
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The bodily resurrection of Jesus authenticates the gospel message. If the tomb is not empty, then our faith is.
     
  20. unprofitable

    unprofitable Active Member

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    I have already addressed your Romans posts. They returned to the Lord with the WHOLE heart (Jeremiah 24:7) which is the new heart of Ezekiel 36:26 by which they are FULLY PERSUADED that through Christ they might love the Lord their God with all (WHOLE) their (NEW) heart, soul, strength, might and their neighbor as themselves. This is the only way those on the good ground could persevere.

    Did they give that righteous heart to themselves? It was appointed, disposed, set in order, ordained to them as is witnessed by Acts 13:48.

    John 6:28-29 is not a request or asking but direction and instruction that can only be kept by those given the life of Christ to be able to do the will of God

    Righteous faith or more correctly a rightly directed faith comes from the direction of the Holy Spirit in those having the life of Christ in them. Did not Israel after the flesh in the persons of the scribes and Pharisees believe they had righteous or rightly directed faith?
     
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