Featured Romans 6.....is there water baptism in the passage, or Spirit baptism ..primarily?

Paul said we are "buried with Him" in baptism - Baptismatos - Baptism into what? Into death (Rom 6:4). He was "buried" in a tomb. Then He was raised OUT OF that tomb. Paul also said in verse 4 "JUST AS Christ was raised from the dead, so we too might walk in newness of life"

He was PLACED into a tomb - buried. If your view has us being placed into Christ, then it means buried into Christ, or immersed into the body of Christ

Even from you John Owen quote:

But even more, Paul said that we are baptized into death. If being baptized into death means baptized into Christ, then are you suggesting that Christ is death?


Further, you are refusing to address RAISED.

He was raised OUT OF that which He was placed into - the tomb.

If our immersion is into Him, then we must be raised OUT OF Him to walk in newness of life

And that is utter nonsense


Until you address RAISED, then you are simply regurgitating the vies of others

 

The water baptism is the covenant betwixt us and the church...w/o it, we can't join the local church. Much like the circumcision was a sign of entering into the OT covenant.


But the water has nothing salvific in and of itself. There is something much deeper that has to take place first....the circumcision of the heart made w/o hands....being Spiritually in Christ...then one is a valid canidate for water submersion....

 

The water buries the old man....

 

That seems to conflict with:

Can you explain what you mean?

 

The old man, the dead soul, has to be buried. The water baptism is a way of symbollically burying that old man.

 

I get what you meant with that, but how does that mesh with what you wrote about Romans 6 being a spiritual baptism?

 

I'm on my Nook right now....have to get deeper when I'm on a computer where I can copy and paste scriptures...

 

Who asked you to respond to "tomb" ?

I said you're dodging the word RAISED.

It's disingenuous, and you know it. You're too proud to admit you have no answer. All you have to do is say you don't know how to answer, that the question confounds you, and that you can't find an answer in a web page somewhere.

But when do you ever do that?

 

This text must be interpreted in keeping with the preceding context. Paul has just finished demonstrating that we are justified by faith in Christ (Rom. 3:24-5:2) and that this righteousness imputed to believers is based upon the sufficiency of Jesus Christ (Rom. 5:3-11) because of his substitutionary Person (Rom. 5:3-22) so that where sin abounded Grace did much more abound (Rom. 5:21).

Now the question is asked "shall we sin that grace may abound?" (Rom. 6:1). In other words, does imputed righteousness or justification by faith give a license to sin?

Paul's immediate response is "God forbid"

Look at verses 2 and 7 - both point back to the substitutionary work of Christ in Romans 5:12-21 and how Christ reversed the consequences of Adam in regard to death for all that are in Christ positionally by faith. However, we are "in Christ" more than mere position due to substitution, there is "justification of life" (5:18) whereby we are "created in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:10) or divine quickening (Eph. 2:1,5,10) due to the substituitonary work of Christ.

Hence, we are "dead" to sin due to substitutionary death to sin received positionally by faith (v. 2) but we are also "freed" from the power of sin due to substitutionary resurrection received personally by regeneration (v. 7).

In water baptism the "likeness" of both truths are IDENTIFIED with openly and publicly (vv. 3-6).

Hence, water baptism is the perfect illustration to begin with to remind them that one truth does not occur without the other. Water baptism IDENTIFIES us with both realities. The realities are not conferred literally in baptism, but the likeness with those realities are literally conferred in baptism as baptism provides public identification with both realities.

 

The poster -- the member quoted in Icon's OP -- states clearly,"What did the water do? It made you wet! It didn't make you any more holy or save you." He makes it clear that water baptism is a symbol, not a saving ordinance.

I don't believe he said anything else.

I believe you and others miss your anonymous poster's point. Just as Paul did, your poster is stating, and I believe correctly, that Romans 6:3-6 speaks of both spiritual baptism and water baptism. Here is what John Gill said about v. 3:

Gill speaks clearly of vv. 4-6 relating to both the spiritual baptism and the ordinance or public immersion, which he intertwined in his exposition of v. 3. I believe the poster you quoted in your OP, Icon, had the same intertwined concept in mind, but then again, I could be wrong.

My mind reading capabilities seem to have utterly failed to develop, particularly in relationship to reading the thoughts of posters on message boards. :laugh:

 

We are "created" in Christ Jesus, which is explicitly defined as being "quickened" (Eph. 2:1,5,10) or regeneration and regeneration is not "spiritual baptism" as regeneration occurred before (Jn. 3) and after Pentecost but the baptism in the Spirit as promised by The Baptist and Christ did not occur prior to Pentecost (Mt. 3:11; Acts 1:5).

Romans 4:3-6 speaks only of water baptism as the visible illustration in public identification with Christ POSITIONALLY and REGENERATIVELY denies that the justified will continue in sin.

 

We who have been saved, have been placed in....immersed....in Christ. God sees us through Christ now. We now are dead, and our life is hid with...again immersed.... with Christ in God. God sees us now as righteous because He sees us being holy in Christ.....again, immersed in Christ. Christ is our righteous covering, as we have the wedding garment on.


Romans 6:7 for he who hath died hath been set free from sin.YLT

This right here is referring to the inner man. Our fleshly body has not been set free from sin. We still struggle with sin. Our flesh desires, craves, yearns, lusts after sin. But it no longer reigns over us.

Romans 6:14 for sin over you shall have not lordship, for ye are not under law, but under grace.YLT


As Brother Iconoclast previously stated, when Christ died, we died. When He arose, we arose. He did everything for us, having tasted death for us, and also rising for us.

 

The passage is speaking about what the water baptism symbolizes/stands for in the life of a Christian...
We were bured in His death, in union/identified with Him, and was raised up in and by him him...

So that baptism referred to there was the ordinance of warwe baptism, but what actually happened to all who have believed unto Jesus before taking the water is what he is talking about baptism portrays!

Same fashion peter likens water baptism to salvation in christ...

 

Please reread post #34.....

 

We have been made new creations in Christ, but still he allowed us to keep that flesh/sin ful part of us that wants to deny to do will of God!

Nothing states that once saved, we are freed from experiencing the lusts/desires of the flesh, as we are commanded to keep that part of us crucified in/with Christ!

 

I didn't say we were free to sin. I just said our flesh still lusts after sin....