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Featured Romans 6.....is there water baptism in the passage, or Spirit baptism ..primarily?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, Jul 7, 2014.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Where did it mention water THOUGH?:wavey:
     
    #101 Iconoclast, Jul 11, 2014
  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Yeshua1

    Think that some people use garlic and herb croutons on their salad, with thousand Island dressing . They still can read the bible though!!
     
    #102 Iconoclast, Jul 11, 2014
  3. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Every time it mentions "baptism" it implies water. The word means "immerse." Remember that Christs is always the immerser, the one who baptizes. He is never the element, that which one is being baptized into. Therefore your interpretation is wrong.
    When the verse says "baptized into Christ" the word "into" means "in relation to" according to A.T. Robertson. It is a picture of our salvation which is given in our baptism.
    It is also a picture of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. '
    It is a picture of our relationship with him.

    Let me ask you this.
    You are familiar with the Scripture:
    Matthew 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
    --Do you take the above verse literally just as you take everything in Romans 6 literally? Do you take the RCC position of transubstantiation? We realize that there are symbols, metaphors, and figures of speech that are deliberately used by the author.
    This is a picture of our salvation: dead to the world and sin; alive to a new life in Christ. We are buried in water and rise out of water as Christ was buried in the earth and arose from the grave. It is a picture. One must realize the picture. If you realize it is a picture in Matthew 26:26, why is it difficult here.

    If it is not a picture here, you need to answer the question.
    Does the new nature, the Holy Spirit, sin, when you sin?
    If the old man or nature is dead, then who is the one that sins??
    This is the problem when you go past what the picture represents. You run into error.
     
    #103 DHK, Jul 11, 2014
  4. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Questions like this just puzzle me. The reason is I know you are highly intelligent yet you ask a question like this that indicates you struggle to understand the most basics of things.

    Answering that question is like answering the question why does 2+2=4.
     
    #104 Revmitchell, Jul 11, 2014
  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    wrong again DHK......
    show me where the water is here;

    11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire

    Johns baptism...used water.....however-
    Jesus baptism is with the Holy Ghost and fire.....


    last time I looked.....fire and water were not the same thing at all DHK:laugh:

    opps...I will give you another chance...find the water.....

    Luke 12:50
    But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

    I will give you another chance DHK...find the water.....
    Matthew 20:23
    And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father

    again...
     
    #105 Iconoclast, Jul 11, 2014
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  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    this is the wrong picture.
     
    #106 Iconoclast, Jul 11, 2014
  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    RM,

    once again if you consider the activity described in rom 6....none of them are done by water baptism....they are done by the Spirit .

    I just posted mt 3;11 to DHK...who suggested that baptism always means water baptism...

    11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance.

    Johns baptism...water..agreed:thumbsup:

    Jesus baptism..Holy Ghost and FIRE....not water.

    I am suggesting that baptism also speaks of Identification with a person or the message of the person...like here;

    10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

    2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;


    they were said to be baptized unto Moses......they were not Immersed...the ungodly Egyptians were immersed however....

    They identified with Moses and were able to pass through the waters of death safely......
    these waters of immersion were death
    the waters of immersion were death to the world of the ungodly in Noahs day. yet Noah and the others in the ark identified with the message God gave to Noah...they passed through the waters of death safely...being rightly related to it...

    in the same way...Those in UNION with Christ..died and rose identified with Him to the Father...in Saving union......by Spirit baptism .......after that is true by new birth...the once for all baptism is put to their account by the indwelling Spirit as the earnest of their inheritance...then and only then is WATER baptism a "picture" of this work.

    Presbyterians speak of infant sprinkling as a sign and seal...that they administer claiming it identifies the infant as being in the covenant...externally.

    I do not believe this is accurate after the cross....so I would not as a Baptist argue for a "picture" first.....I look to the reality first...picture secondary, important , but secondary.:wavey:

    but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire
     
    #107 Iconoclast, Jul 11, 2014
  8. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    First, the words are the words of John the Baptist, the last of the OT prophets.
    Second, the baptism of the Holy Spirit was a prophecy fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost.
    Third, the baptism of fire refers to being immersed in persecution and fiery trials which would come upon each one of them. Each one of the Apostles were martyred save John, and he was exiled.

    Again, in context, it refers to the sufferings that he is about to be immersed in.
    Again it refers to suffering.
    The context gives the meaning.

    Matthew 28:19,20, however speaks of water, as does Romans 6:3-5.
     
    #108 DHK, Jul 12, 2014
  9. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Keep poundin' away at'em Brother Iconoclast!! :thumbs::thumbs: :thumbsup: :thumbs:
     
    #109 convicted1, Jul 12, 2014
  10. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    No....first you should have said....oh...it looks like I was wrong when I said this afterall....you have just shown me..I dhk was wrong once again when I stated this;
    Thank you for the correction Icon.


    yes it does....and your statement that baptism always means water was wrong...no water here at all
     
    #110 Iconoclast, Jul 12, 2014
  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Hello Brother....Just trying to shed light and be accountable....working on DHKs big question to me in the other thread...will post on that shortly...the threads bleed into each other:wavey:
     
    #111 Iconoclast, Jul 12, 2014
  12. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I was right all along. Every time baptism is used it refers to water baptism.
    Perhaps I should ask you again if you need grammar lessons/reading lessons/ lessons in not taking the subject off topic/ not introducing red herrings.
    We are not talking about the words of John the Baptist, Jesus, or any other person.
    Note the title of this thread:

    Romans 6.....is there water baptism in the passage, or Spirit baptism ..primarily?

    Please confine your remarks to the subject, to Romans six, where Paul uses the word "baptism" to refer to water baptism, ever time, as I first stated.
    I have no need to apologize for anything.
    You need to apologize for taking this thread off topic.

    I didn't thank you; but you should be thanking me and humbly accepting it.
    IN THIS CHAPTER Baptism always refers to water. That is the picture here. Our baptism is symbolic of our death to our old life of rebellion to God and our new life in Christ. That is it. It is a picture given in water baptism. Accept it.
     
    #112 DHK, Jul 12, 2014
  13. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Absolutely correct! This is water baptism. Nothing illustrates Paul's point in the context better than pointing back to their water baptism, as baptism in water is OUR PUBLIC IDENTIFICATION with Christ's death and burial in regard to sin - thus dead to sin, but it is also OUR PUBLIC IDENTIFICATION with his resurrection in regard to life.

    Paul's point is simple! Justification by faith does not promote continuance in sin, because there is no such person justified by faith who is not also regenerated and thus in possession of the resurrected life of Christ - baptism in water personally identifies every believer with both.
     
    #113 The Biblicist, Jul 12, 2014
  14. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    I showed you where baptism is used and it does not mean water:laugh:
    /

    Strawman alert:thumbs:


    I happen to know the person who started this thread, and he tells me it is fine to Speak about Spirit baptism as well as water baptism...wherever it is found, not just romans 6...to see how God uses the word baptism in scripture:wavey:

    Could you show where Paul said it was water baptism in Romans 6...you and others suggest it, but you cannot answer this that I offered to RM...
    once again if you consider the activity described in rom 6....none of them are done by water baptism....they are done by the Spirit .

    I just posted mt 3;11 to DHK...who suggested that baptism always means water baptism...

    11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance.

    Johns baptism...water..agreed

    Jesus baptism..Holy Ghost and FIRE....not water.
    I am suggesting that baptism also speaks of Identification with a person or the message of the person...like here;

    10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

    2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;they were said to be baptized unto Moses......they were not Immersed...the ungodly Egyptians were immersed however....

    They identified with Moses and were able to pass through the waters of death safely......
    these waters of immersion were death
    the waters of immersion were death     to the world of the ungodly in Noahs day. yet Noah and the others in the ark identified with the message God gave to Noah...they passed through the waters of death safely...being rightly related to it...

    in the same way...Those in UNION with Christ..died and rose identified with Him to the Father...in Saving union......by Spirit baptism .......after that is true by new birth...the once for all baptism is put to their account by the indwelling Spirit as the earnest of their inheritance...then and only then is WATER baptism a "picture" of this work.

    Presbyterians speak of infant sprinkling as a sign and seal...that they administer claiming it identifies the infant as being in the covenant...externally.

    I do not believe this is accurate after the cross....so I would not as a Baptist argue for a "picture" first.....I look to the reality first...picture secondary, important , but secondary.
    but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with

    Biblicist...we normally agree but here we differ.i agree that baptism is an identification, I think Spirit baptism is primary taking place at one time {Pentecost} God establishing His Church ...all believers all through time according to the Covenant of redemption,and grace.
    Feel free to respond to this portion of the discussion if time permits.....again
    You are wrong about this also:thumbs: The person who started the thread has assured me it is okay.

    No you amend your faulty statement...that is progress...you also state your view....ok.

    water baptism is a picture...yes...I think you look away from the biblical picture given by God and take the watered down Baptist version that does not address what is primary because most do not properly understand UNION with Christ.
     
    #114 Iconoclast, Jul 12, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 12, 2014
  15. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Uh no let's take a look.

    Rom 6:4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.


    This is talking about water baptism. We never refer to being baptized by the spirit with this much analogy. Whe we are immersed we are buried with Him.

    When we are raised out of the water we are raised to walk in newness of life.

    That is all talking about water baptism. Anything else is not only wrong but is neither orthodox nor is it baptist.
     
    #115 Revmitchell, Jul 12, 2014
  16. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    You forgot some Scriptures.

    2 Kings 5:14 Then went he down, and dipped himself seven times in Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God: and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean.
    --If you are going to use Scripture out of the context of Romans 6, you might as well use them all. The word used for "dip" is the same word that would be used for "baptize;" it means "immerse."
    But like 2Kings 5:14, they are not relevant.
    There is no spirit baptism here; it is water baptism. I have told you. Biblicist has told you. RevMitchell has shown you, as have others. You simply have a closed mind to the truth of Scriptures. If you admit what the truth is in this passage it will destroy your doctrinal error in other areas. That is your real problem.

    Consider this.
    Nowhere in Scripture does the Spirit baptize.
    Jesus is the baptizer; not the Spirit.
    You ridiculously suggest that Mat.3 is in Romans 6. It isn't. There is no "spirit baptism" in Romans 6. If you can't stick to the topic of this thread then stop posting.
    non sequitor; off topic
    another non sequitor; off topic.
    All of the above is off topic; it has nothing to do with the topic. Read the title of the thread.
    You are still not posting to the title of the thread.
    2 Kings 5:14 Then went he down, and dipped himself seven times in Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God: and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean.
    I shouldn't have had to amend anything if you understood English. I posted within the confines of the posted subject.
    If you are not a Baptist and despise Baptist doctrine as you just posted or inferred then why not join the Presbyterians?
    Your beloved Confessions even disagree with you!
     
    #116 DHK, Jul 12, 2014
  17. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    RM,

    If you are going to teach on Spirit Baptism...what do you teach IT IS?

    What verses do you use to teach it?
    I am just looking for a brief explanation and verses that you might use to teach it.
     
    #117 Iconoclast, Jul 12, 2014
  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    .

    No problem...scriptures are always welcomed.

    yes he did. I think the "Jordan" was a river ....of water......so this was would speak of a water baptism:thumbs:..

    To look at the topic biblically nothing says we must only remain in Romans 6.

    Any passage dealing with Spirit baptism that is in the bible is valid to see how God speaks of the work of the Spirit.
    No one anywhere on this thread has disputed what word meanings are so somehow I feel a STRAWMAN ALERT is in order.

    that is a fine verse if we were discussing mode of baptism....but that is not being discussed.
    That is what you believe, but have not really shown that at all.

    .
    Yes you have made this statement.....but seeing as you are not an Apostle, I reserve the right to be like the Bereans
    11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

    Biblicist offered one post, maybe two....he offered his point of view. I like Biblicist. we agree often but he makes a solid case most every time.
    From what he posted we might have partial disagreement here...but that is okay.....He does not call me names, or behave like a cyber bully....he answers what you ask him.

    RM...offered a little...but I need to see what he believes about Spirit Baptism.

    Biblicist offered his view so that helps the discussion along. I think I have partial agreement with Biblicist but will wait and see.

    ...

    That is your opinion which you are free to express. Perhaps some share that opinion with you.

    So...if this is the part where we share our opinions like this....I do not think you are in any position to make an accurate judgment on this.

    You have offered error upon error on several threads and often "truth eludes you". Sorry if this comes as a surprise to you...but perhaps many share my opinion on this:thumbs:

    This is why you fight it...you know it exposes your wrong ideas....so soon I expect you will attack me , or say something off track to avoid answering the scriptures offered...let's see;)

    Regardless of what role the members of the Trinty have
    Paul says this;
    13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

    Was this water Baptism in your world?

    Let me see if I said that.....what a surprise You misquoted what I did say...I posted this to you....
    I just posted mt 3;11 to DHK...who suggested that baptism always means water baptism...

    11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance.

    Johns baptism...water..agreed

    Jesus baptism..Holy Ghost and FIRE....not water.
    I am suggesting that baptism also speaks of Identification with a person or the message of the person...like here;

    I used this quote of MT 3 to show how the word baptism....does not always speak of water as you suggested. Notice...I did not mention rom 6 here did I.

    This could be a beginning of a strawman.....or worse...a deliberate misrepresentation. Let's continue.

    Other people do see what you do not. because you cannot see or understand it...does not translate to you telling me what to post does it.
    I am on topic of the thread that you seek to derail because you are loosing your composure.



    Is non sequitor a latin phrase for.....I cannot respond to these verses at all, so I will conveniently seek to dismiss them???

    Well here it is confirmed...you just want to dismiss what you cannot handle.
    I started the Thread and verses dealing with Spirit baptism...or other baptisms are in play as the OP seeks to see which might be primary in rom 6.

    If you are in over your head there is no shame in backing out gracefully.
    You are unable to respond is all.You can respond but it will expose what your ideas lead to.

    You have a habit in your posts when someone calls you on a statement, you change the statement, or blend the words together to obscure where you were shown wrong.....it is like someone moving the target after it has been hit a few times.

    But I am a Baptist DHK....so you continue your pattern when being defeated of attacking the person who answers you....

    I no where said I despised "Baptist doctrine" as I am a Baptist.....you add words to slander me again......I do despise someone like you who cannot deal honestly with what is posted...you accuse or put words in my post that I did not say.....no one should do this...much less a "moderator"

    because I am a Baptist.
     
    #118 Iconoclast, Jul 12, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 12, 2014
  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    For those who enjoy study....WR.Downing on Union with Christ...


    554 The reference to “baptism” is not literal, but must be taken figuratively. The Scriptures do not teach baptismal regeneration.

    The term “Baptism” was often used figuratively for identification with someone or thing (e.g., John the Baptist came to prepare or identify a people for the Messiah.

    Our Lord had to experience a “baptism” of suffering in Matt. 20:22–23; Mk. 10:38–39; Lk. 12:50, etc.).
    Here, of the believer’s union with Christ. Water baptism is symbolic of this union as an act of identification with Christ, but does not and cannot effect it.


    555 The term changes at this point to “corpse,” i.e., the believer is to reckon himself to be as it were a corpse (logi,zesqe e`autou.j Îei=naiÐ nekrou.j me.n th/| a`marti,a|) with respect to sin—wholly unresponsive to sin’s solicitations. 556 o[ti eivj u`pe.r pa,ntwn avpe,qanen( a;ra oi` pa,ntej avpe,qanon. “That if one died on behalf of [the] all, then [the] all died,” revealing the covenant and effectual nature of Christ’s death and the believer’s vital union in this transaction. 557 The Lord Jesus Christ is now exalted at the Father’s right hand as the Lord of glory in an entirely new and different relationship as the God–man (a death and resurrection have taken place); just so, there is a distinct, radical change for every believer—the old life with its significance has passed away, and all has become new by virtue of his union with Christ.
     
    #119 Iconoclast, Jul 12, 2014
  20. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    You at least must show how other Scriptures are relevant. You haven't done that.
    Only if you can show its relevancy.
    You have yet to prove such a thing as "spirit baptism." That is what the Charismatics teach. Is this a Biblical doctrine? Where do you get it from. It doesn't come from Romans 6. I think it is an imaginary doctrine.
    John baptized with water.
    Jesus baptized with water (by proxy through his disciples).
    I have searched the Scriptures, and with the authority of the Apostle Paul can safely say that the baptism in Romans 6 refers to water baptism. There is no other baptism that Paul refers to here.
    Being immersed in water is symbolic of the gospel itself--the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
    Being immersed in water is symbolic of our belief in that gospel (justification), that is, our death to sin and rebellion to God, and our resurrection to a new life in Christ. It is a picture. No other interpretation can properly and hermeneutically fit that passage.
    You should listen to him.
    I have posted many posts with Scripture after scripture that have gone unanswered by you. It is not just opinion. I am not even a Calvinist and yet I agree with parts of the Confession of faith that you posted, whereas you do not. I have shown you from the Scriptures and from your own Confession that you are wrong.
    What Scripture have I ever avoided? You avoid the Scriptures that I post.
    For example, You cannot explain Rom.7:23-25--verse 25 being the words only a saved man can utter.
    You cannot explain in the first few verses of Romans 6 that if you truly believe that the old nature is dead, then when you sin, do you attribute that sin to the new nature, the Holy Spirit of God? Is it God then, that is sinning? Then who?
    This is a very controversial verse, and there are a number of interpretations. Don't assume yours is the correct one.
    1. Yes, there are many, many that believe this is water baptism, for baptism is the entrance to the local church. By water baptism they were made one in that local church. It unified them because that is how they became members.

    2. The word "by" is the Greek word "en" normally translated "in" and "pnuema" has no capital nor does in need one.
    IOW, "In one spirit are we all baptized into one body."
    That is, in a spirit of unity we come together or are immersed into one body. The church was divided. Paul was speaking of a spirit of unity, not the Holy Spirit.
    --Either way there is no "Spirit Baptism" being spoken of here.
    And none of these are relevant to the topic at hand. They are not relevant to Romans 6. If they are show how they are relevant; if not stop with the red herrings.
    I have shown you Scripture. I am not playing a popularity game.
    You normally dismiss verses I give you. What else is new?
    1. I have demonstrated through context and Scripture that this is water baptism.
    2. You can't even demonstrate if such a thing as spirit baptism exists!
    I am not the one over my head as you can see.
    Icon! You don't respond to the Scripture I give you.
    You mean like having to clarify myself that I was talking of the baptism in Romans 6 as the thread indicates and not throughout the entire Bible? :rolleyes:
    I simply point out that you don't agree with the Baptist Confessioni of faith. You more than any other poster I have ever met quotes from various Baptists Confessions. Now you don't agree with them. I find this a bit disconcerting. Don't you?
     
    #120 DHK, Jul 13, 2014
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