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Featured Romans 9-15

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, Dec 15, 2015.

  1. Internet Theologian

    Internet Theologian Well-Known Member

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    That's prior to his argument in verse 29. He is showing the inadequacy of ones ethnicity, specifically of being a natural Jew. He climaxes that argument in 29. Jesus of course taught the same in John 8. Note verse 37. The Middletown article is their argument but this passage is a strong case for the OP and things discussed in this thread. I believe it undoes their argument.
     
  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    I've seen that site before but being that you did the work to come up with the link to offer I will look at it and I'll go over it when I stop for the night still driving right now but in the meantime I'd like you to also look at the verses that were offered in the in the preceding posts
     
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  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    So I look at the article by Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum he does a good job picking out verses speaking of OT Israel.
    Before the cross obviously the scriptures would speak of national Israel as they were entrusted with the scriptures and had been singled out from all other nations;
    rom3. What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

    2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

    amos3
    2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.


    deut7
    6
    For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

    7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

    8 But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

    The promises were made to them in large measure, so it is no surprise that the references looking back address that nation..

    Now what I also notice is many passages glossed over and completely ignored...in his list
    .
    Well now, let's look a little closer.
    Verse 12 is showing how before the cross gentiles were for the most part non covenant people and outside of the promises the nation of Israel were given.....gentiles before the cross were;and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

    His contrast is false....the contrast was gentiles before the cross and Israel.
    The contrast is NOT BETWEEN Israel and the Church.....

    The rest of chapter two shows one new man In Christ.....not two separate men, not jew and gentile contrasted but what he does say is this;

    In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

    22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit
    I will do more in this next post, I do not want to be cut -off;
     
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  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    pt 2;
    AF says;
    This is completely false-
    Let's look.....
    22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

    23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

    24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

    This section is NOT SPEAKING of OT Israel in the first Exodus at all...in fact it is in direct contrast to OT Israel as the writer to Hebrews says here;
    18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

    19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:

    20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:

    21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)

    he says they have not come to the earthly mount, but the heavenly Zion and Jerusalem.....big difference.
     
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  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    pt3

    Yes before Pentecost they did not get it...after Pentecost they still did not get it, Peter had to be instructed by seeing the vision of the unclean animals being called clean....
    The Kingdom was promised to Israel in the OT.....When the King came they rejected Him,
    The King let's them know they are rejected....mt21:43.
    If they were thinking right they would have had the church in mind.....
    This pattern was repeated

    acts 13;
    16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.

    17 The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it.

    18 And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness.

    19 And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot.

    20 And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet.

    21 And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years.

    22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave their testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

    23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

    24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

    25 And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose.

    26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.
    32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,

    33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

    34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

    35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

    36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

    37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

    38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

    39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

    40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;

    41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

    They rejected it as their fathers did and now paul quotes from Isaiah 49, which you have ignored as well as those like AF...who speak of historic national Israel....
    45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

    46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

    47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

    48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
     
  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    pt4
    Sure he is and within a few minutes these unbelieving Men of Israel were indeed the church,lol....were they saved and not a part of the "church"....?

    yes and the same result...they were the church once they were In Christ.
     
    #67 Iconoclast, Dec 18, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2015
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  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    So Jon.....I have one for you;
    http://kimriddlebarger.squarespace....nialism-101-jesus-christ-the-true-israel.html

    In Isaiah 41:8-9, the prophet spoke of a future restoration of Israel in these terms. “But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend; you whom I took from the ends of the earth, and called from its farthest corners, saying to you, `You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you off.'” The same promise is reiterated in the next chapter of Isaiah (42:1-7), when the LORD declares of his servant, “I am the Lord; I have called you in righteousness; I will take you by the hand and keep you; I will give you as a covenant for the people, a light for the nations”( v. 6). Isaiah continues to speak of this servant in chapters 44 (vv. 1-2) and 45 (v. 4).

    Dispensationalists, given their so-called "literal hermeneutic," are bound to interpret such passages literally, thereby assign the fulfillment of these prophecies of Isaiah to a future earthly millennium in which Israel co-exists with Gentiles under the reign of the Davidic king (See Walvoord, The Millennial Kingdom, 302-304; and Pentecost, Things to Come, 503-508). In effect, this amounts to the restoration of the monarchy as Jesus takes his place on David's royal throne and rules the nations from this restored Israel.

    But is this how the New Testament interprets these messianic prophecies regarding the servant of the Lord? Who is this servant of the Lord? It is the nation of Israel, or is it Jesus, Israel’s Messiah?

    In order to answer this questions, we must see that the gospel writers interpret these prophecies from Isaiah as fulfilled in the messianic mission of Jesus. First, in Matthew 12:15-21, for example, when Jesus withdrew from the crowds who had followed him, Matthew reports that this event fulfilled what had been spoken in Isaiah the prophet. This event serves to demonstrate that Jesus is the true servant of the Lord.Second, as Jesus cast out demons and healed the sick, Matthew saw in this the fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecies of a suffering servant who would take upon himself our infirmities and carry our diseases (Matthew 8:17 with Isaiah 53:4).Third, in Luke’s gospel, Luke speaks of both Israel (cf. Luke 1:54) and David as the servant of God (Luke 1:69). Yet in Acts, Luke pointedly speaks of Jesus as the servant of God (Acts 3:13). After his crucifixion, God raised Jesus from the dead so that people everywhere might be called to repentance (3:26).Fourth, when the Ethiopian eunuch hears a reading from Isaiah 53:7-8 and asks Philip about whom this prophecy refers, Luke tells us that Philip informed the Ethiopian that this passage does indeed refer to Jesus (Acts 8:34-35).

    But this is not all that is in view here. In Hosea 11:1, Hosea predicted a time when “Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.” But in Matthew 2:15, the evangelist tells us that Hosea’s prophecy was fulfilled when his parents took Jesus to Egypt to protect him from Herod’s “slaughter of the innocents” (Matthew 2:3-18). Yet, after Herod had died, God called Jesus and his family to return to Nazareth. Matthew takes a passage from Hosea, which clearly refers to Israel, and tells his reader that this passage is now fulfilled in Jesus Christ! He does this to prove to his largely Jewish audience that Jesus is the servant of the Lord, foretold throughout the Old Testament (especially Isaiah).

    By now it should be clear that according to many New Testament writers, Jesus is the true servant, the true son and the true Israel of God. Recall too that it was Isaiah who spoke of Israel and the descendants of Abraham as the people of God. It as through the seed of Abraham that the nations of the earth would be blessed.
     
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  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Jon...here is another for you;
    http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/israel.shtml
     
  10. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    more from tony warren;
     
  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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  13. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    from L.R.Shelton;
    Also the kingdom must be now in God's child, purchased by Christ, for Col 1:12-13 tells us when God saves us we are made "partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: and have been delivered from the power of darkness [the spiritual wicked kingdom of Satan] and translated into the kingdom of his dear Son." Yes, this kingdom is now, established in the hearts of God's children, and Christ has been crowned King and Lord of their lives. Let us go further. There are those who build much of their argument for an earthly kingdom of 1000 years sometime in the future upon the assumption that the "kingdom of God" as spoken of in Mark, Luke and John, and the "kingdom of heaven" as spoken of in Matthew are two separate kingdoms; the kingdom of God being a heavenly kingdom and the kingdom of heaven being an earthly kingdom. One has God the Father as Ruler; the other has God the Son as Ruler. But this argument is wrongly dividing of the Word of Truth, because if you will compare them as we are going to do now, you will find that the Scriptures show conclusively that these two terms are used interchangeably. Compare Mat 11:12 where the expression"the kingdom of heaven" is used, and Luke 16:16 where the expression "the kingdom of God" is used; and you will find they are the same. "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force." That's Matthew, now Luke: "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it." Listen now to a comparison between Mat 4:17 and Mark 1:1-14. "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." And Mark: "Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye and believe the gospel. Again listen to a comparison between Mat 3, 5 and Luke 6:20. "Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Now Luke: "Blessed are ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God." One more will suffice and yet there are many more. Compare Mat 13:31 with Mark 4:30-31. '"The kingdom of heaven is like unto a grain of mustard seed." Now Mark: "How shall we liken the kingdom of God...it is like a grain of mustard seed."
     
  14. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    more L.R. Shelton;
     
  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Jon
    When if ever has these promised curses came upon national Israel????
    from Deut28;
     
  16. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    These should keep you busy as I have a long couple of days driving coming up.
     
  17. Internet Theologian

    Internet Theologian Well-Known Member

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    No offense to middletown, others, or JonShaff but the arguments presented in the document are just off track.
     
  18. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    How do you get that from this?:

    9 have ye not known that the unrighteous the reign of God shall not inherit? be not led astray; neither whoremongers, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor sodomites,
    10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, the reign of God shall inherit. 1 Cor 6 YLT

    Is it an accepted translation or your own rendition? Whatever it is it's awful.
     
  19. Internet Theologian

    Internet Theologian Well-Known Member

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    John Owen: https://books.google.com/books?id=Y...t guilty of the same profligate sins.&f=false
     
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  20. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Then Icon should revise his signature to reflect the correct source of the quote, because it's definitely NOT the scripture he's made it appear to be. It's a quote from man, not the Spirit.
     
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