Salvation: God's Choice, Man's Choice, Both Choose?

The concept of the Godhead, three persons one God, is clearly taught in scripture.

Your belief that “many are saved having never heard the gospel”, is not taught and is, frankly, clearly refuted by scripture.

peace to you

 

The only “rules of operation” that I believe are grounded in scripture. I have no need to speculate.

peace to you

 

I repeated your own words. Saying I misrepresented what you said without actually addressing what you said is not explaining how I misrepresented what you said.

But I’ll not argue with you. I’ll let you go. No need to respond further. Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

 

No denial, you claimed I made a threat. Please point to the threat. Any rational person does not see one.

 

LOL, yet another pathetic attempt to change the subject and turn a biblical discussion into a food fight. This is all they offer, a change of subject.
Folks, consider the statement, "I do not deny that." What "that" is being referenced? Unknown. Does Calvinism deny God credits (or not) our faith? You bet. They claim the faith we have was instilled by irresistible grace, thus there is no need to credit it as righteous, it is righteous because it is from God in the first place.

The list of Calvinism's denials of spiritual truths is long indeed. And their unrepentant denial of their denial is relentless.

They like to charge others with not understanding their doctrine, because they cannot defend their actual doctrine for it is unbiblical.

Calvinism 101 - Paul did not speak to new Christians as to "men of flesh" (lost unregenerate people) using spiritual "milk" the fundamentals of the gospel. Thus they deny 1 Corinthians 3:1-3.

Calvinism 101 - God did not credit Abraham's faith (his faith) as righteousness, nope God instilled God's own faith into Abraham. Thus they deny Romans 4:5.

Calvinism 101 - Christ did not die as a ransom for all humanity, but only for the elect. Therefore, Christ had not "bought" those heading for swift destruction. Thus they deny 2 Peter 2:1.

I could go on listing verse after verse, but they will only post "taint so and Van is rotten for saying so."

 

Van, if I directly quote you saying I deny something, and then I say I do not deny that. You cannot honestly say that what is being referenced is unknown.

 

I am glad the Van brought up Jesus Ransom. Let's look at who that ransom is for.
1 Peter 1:1-2,18-20

This letter is from Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ. I am writing to God’s chosen people who are living as foreigners in the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia. God the Father knew you and chose you long ago, and his Spirit has made you holy. As a result, you have obeyed him and have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ. May God give you more and more grace and peace.

For you know that God paid a ransom to save you from the empty life you inherited from your ancestors. And the ransom he paid was not mere gold or silver. It was the precious blood of Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God. God chose him as your ransom long before the world began, but he has now revealed him to you in these last days.

Why Van references 2 Peter 2:1,I do not know.

2 Peter 2:1

But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them. In this way, they will bring sudden destruction on themselves.

The only thing I can figure is that Van is making a not so subtle accusation that Calvinism is a false teaching and heresy.
However, 1 Peter 1 shows that God's choosing, far before people ever have the gift of faith, therefore makes Van's claim false. (It has always been false and it has been refuted by many, yet Van persists and claims that only he is correct.)

 

@Van tries to make the claim that because it says "even deny the Master who bought them" it somehow shows that Christ died for all individuals including false prophets and teachers. It's more grasping at straws and ignoring the overall context.

 

Thanks for the clarification. He is honing in on the word "bought."
Here's a good article:

Does 2 Peter 2:1 Deny Effectual Atonement?

 

Not sure how me saying that romans 1 should get us to seek answers about our sin problem. is the same as getting people to seek after God

especially when I said it causes us to respond in different ways, Including making up their own Gods (idols)

Once again, If your going to try to discuss with someone. at least try to understand what they said..

 

I am trying to understand what you are saying, which is why I’m asking for clarification. I’ll repeat what I said, but I’m not sure why you won’t let this go.

You appeared to have stated that based on the person responding to God’s revelation of Himself in creation (per Romans 1) and realizing they are a sinner and seeking answers, “God can then send the gospel to them”.

He is what you said.

“This is responding to what is known in a way God can now send to you the gospel”

You are clearly stating that God is somehow enabled to send the gospel to people once they respond appropriately to revelation found in creation.

If that is not what you meant, fine. If you meant what you said, then I disagree.

peace to you

 

Let me ask you this

If you do not respond to the fact you are a sinner. If you make up your own God (idol) and worship him to hide from your sin, Or if you find religion in an attempt to pay your own sin debt.

Are you going to be open to God sending his word to you?

 

1 peter was written to Jews , his people (whome he was an apostle to) and the elect. who were and have been scattered or part of the dispersia from the time of Babylon.

The same people Paul in romans 11 said was to be hated according to the gospel/ but beloeved according to the election.


So not sure how that proves calvinism.

 

You didn’t address what you said, but I’ll tell you what scripture says.

Romans 1 states everyone rejected God based on His revelation of Himself in creation. There is no mention of God being enabled to send the gospel to someone based on their response to creation. If that was the point of what you posted, imo, you are wrong.

A person becomes receptive to the truth of the gospel when God Holy Spirit intervenes in their lives. This is referred to drawing, convicting, moving, quickening, regeneration, etc.

This is a supernatural event that enables the person to overcome the influence of sin and accept the truth of Jesus Christ and Him crucified for their sin. They respond with faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior.

Salvation is a work of God, 100% from start to finish.

God doesn’t respond to what we do in salvation, we respond to what God does.

peace to you

 

I believe the gospel is the word of God that tells us the following; and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.' ; has been superseded by the faith of Christ, obedience unto death, even the death of the cross, for our sins, wherefore he was raise out of the dead because of our being declared righteous by his obedience. see Rom 5:19 for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.


Our salvation is not what we do but what God through Christ has done.

IMHO

 

Is the gospel necessary for salvation?

peace to you

 

I can not imagine any better news.

It is the power of God unto salvation.

 

Endless posts of off topic diversion is all Calvinism has to offer.

 

Once again we have Calvinism claiming Jesus bought those heading for swift destruction as referring to something other than dying for them. Nonsense. Bought how? Jesus laid down His life as a ransom for all. Did this result in automatic redemption? Nope, as this false teacher was still heading for swift destruction. Thus Jesus provided the means of salvation which is obtained if God chooses to credit an individuals faith as righteousness and on that basis places them spiritually into Christ.

 

So God based saving us upon what we decide to do, and not on what He decided?