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Salvation of the Heathen
- Thread starter J.D.
- Start date
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
To All,
In seeing the above post by canadyjd and reading the preceding post by J.D., I am reminded that our guilt is not as simple as our rejecting God.
Canadyjd is correct that we, as Romans 1 says, reject God who is plainly revealed in nature. This explanation, however, is only secondary.
Our guilt is two-fold. Our “secondary” guilt is our own rejection of God and our own sins. Our “Primary” guilt is from Adam’s sin.
Because of Adam’s sin, we all have a guilty standing before God. We are all held responsible for Adam’s sin.
I realize that I am not a “Calv-a-minian” and that was the group that J.D. was addressing. However I felt it was necessary to post this. I’m sure it will open a can of worms—after all, what is a message board for?
Blessings,
The Archangel
In seeing the above post by canadyjd and reading the preceding post by J.D., I am reminded that our guilt is not as simple as our rejecting God.
Canadyjd is correct that we, as Romans 1 says, reject God who is plainly revealed in nature. This explanation, however, is only secondary.
Our guilt is two-fold. Our “secondary” guilt is our own rejection of God and our own sins. Our “Primary” guilt is from Adam’s sin.
Because of Adam’s sin, we all have a guilty standing before God. We are all held responsible for Adam’s sin.
I realize that I am not a “Calv-a-minian” and that was the group that J.D. was addressing. However I felt it was necessary to post this. I’m sure it will open a can of worms—after all, what is a message board for?
Blessings,
The Archangel
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
J.D. said:
Perhaps if any had accepted God from general revelation, you might have an a good point. The following verses make it very clear that every single person on the planet has rejected God. Therefore, general revelation, from these verses, serves to condemn, not save.
Every man/woman that has ever lived has rejected God until and unless God intervenes through His Spirit and draws them into a salvific relationship with Himself.
peace to you
raying:Salvation is through Jesus Christ and through Jesus Christ alone. Before the Cross, He was the Promise of God. After, He was known by the earthly name of Y'shua, or Jesus.
The promise was given after the first sin, by way of God's words to Satan. The seed of the woman.
Job knew his Redeemer lived. The knowledge that God Himself would save believers was known from the beginning. Believing that Promise was to believe on Christ. Missionaries have found that all the cultures they have visited -- all the tribes -- have, somewhere in their lore, the knowledge of that Promise. God truly was and is not willing that any should perish.
We are blessed to know the history of the Incarnation. But the knowledge of God's Promise and the belief on that is what saves a man.
The promise was given after the first sin, by way of God's words to Satan. The seed of the woman.
Job knew his Redeemer lived. The knowledge that God Himself would save believers was known from the beginning. Believing that Promise was to believe on Christ. Missionaries have found that all the cultures they have visited -- all the tribes -- have, somewhere in their lore, the knowledge of that Promise. God truly was and is not willing that any should perish.
We are blessed to know the history of the Incarnation. But the knowledge of God's Promise and the belief on that is what saves a man.
Marcia
Active Member
J.D. said:
No one is saved by general revelation, but only by the special revelation of Jesus Christ.
I agree with canadyjd that Rom. 1 and 2 is about how man is accountable and guilty before God, not about how man is saved.
After the messy and sorry history of man - wars, murder, rape, violence, greed, manipulation, selfishness, etc. - man still tries to find some hopeful spark in man but it isn't there. The only spark is that man is made in God's image, though even that is defaced, though not erased, by sin. All the good is in God - his mercy and grace that he would save anyone through Jesus Christ.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Helen said:
Frankly, I have seen no evidence that "all the tribes" have the knowledge of the "promise", and can be saved based on that. All you have to do is compare the ancient texts of the ancient near east with Genesis, to see vast differences.
I do not recall a single mention of such a "promise" in the Gilgamesh epic, for instance. Buddism or Hinduism makes no such mention of such a "promise" from God, since that don't really believe in the one true God. If such a "promise" were a part of such belief systems, I am certain that would have been pointed to long ago.
Are you making the claim that every person that ever lived had some knowledge of the Genesis promise, and therefore had the opportunity to be saved?
peace to you
raying:canadyjd said:Frankly, I have seen no evidence that "all the tribes" have the knowledge of the "promise", and can be saved based on that. All you have to do is compare the ancient texts of the ancient near east with Genesis, to see vast differences.
I do not recall a single mention of such a "promise" in the Gilgamesh epic, for instance. Buddism or Hinduism makes no such mention of such a "promise" from God, since that don't really believe in the one true God. If such a "promise" were a part of such belief systems, I am certain that would have been pointed to long ago.
Are you making the claim that every person that ever lived had some knowledge of the Genesis promise, and therefore had the opportunity to be saved?
peace to you
I suggest you do a little more reading. Read of the ancient Chinese language, which records creation, the Promise, the Flood, etc. Read the ancient Vedas, which record one God, creation, and the Promise. Read Bruchko, from our own time, which records Bruce Olsen's discovery of the Promise still there among the Motilone Indians of Columbia in our generation. Read Peace Child.
Gilgamesh is the epic of a man, not the story of God's promise to all men. However it does contain some interesting information about the building of the Ark and the way the post Flood generations saw Noah!
In fact, the Bible itself tells us that the Promise was known by all. Paul refers to that in Romans 10. Many quote the first part, starting with verse 14, but forget that Paul answers his own rhetorical question in verse 18: "But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
'their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.'"
He is quoting directly from Psalm 19, which states that the heavens declare the glory of God. And what is the Glory of God? It is Christ Jesus, who is "the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of His being " (Hebrews 1:3).
Today the Zodiac is perverted by Satan. But something cannot be perverted unless it was once straight. God named the stars (see Psalms and Isaiah) although He allowed man to name the animals. The names of the stars and the names of the constellations clearly tell the story of salvation by God. (http://www.ldolphin.org/zodiac/index.html) People have always had the stars. And the story was once known. Noah himself was a preacher of righteousness (Hebrews 11) and all righteousness is in Christ. Noah knew and preached the truth of the coming Messiah. Job knew it. David knew it (Psalm 2, among others). The ancient records show that it was known around the world.
God meant it when he had it written that He did not desire one to perish.
Brother Bob
New Member
Sometimes I think the so called Heathen may be smarter than all of us.
Romans is a good book to read on this
I know that God is Just, he will judge all men based on there hearts
Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
Psalms 9:8 He shall judge the world in righteousness, And He shall administer judgment for the peoples in uprightness.
I know that God is Just, he will judge all men based on there hearts
Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
Psalms 9:8 He shall judge the world in righteousness, And He shall administer judgment for the peoples in uprightness.
Last edited by a moderator:
Helen said:
Helen, I also have heard of a group of people in Korea, or perhaps was it Burma, who surprised the first missionaries that went there when they became so excited upon hearing the gospel, and wanted to know the Name of Christ.
When pressed, they revealed a story that was passed on by mouth from generation to generation about a redemption that was to be done by a holy God whose Name they did not know.
Can you tell me where to look for those books you mentioned above ?
Thanks.
I've loaned so many books out through the years that were never 'loaned back' my kids used to call it my way of tithing....
Looking at what I have here, I can recommend Bruce Olsen's "Bruchko", Christianson's "Peace Child" and "Eternity in their Hearts".
Here's a little more I found on the net:
http://www.donet.com/~rcooper/museum/search/misc/aclsc.htm
-- the book that link talks about is here: http://www.booksofthebible.com/p1331.html
Now, when Ethel Nelson was contacted about some criticisms regarding that book, she wrote the following to a friend of mine, and this may help even more -- keep in mind she no longer recommend the book, but so many people refer to it that I wanted to reference it here with her letter. Here is her letter in its entirety with the name of the person she wrote to left out :
I really appreciated your email to me, just received. First of all I should explain that I'm not addicted to the internet, and much passes by without my knowledge, so I do appreciate your references to various web sites. The site"Do Chinese Characters Tell us Something About Genesis?"
quotes mainly our first book, "Discovery of Genesis" that was written in 1979-all of 25 years ago! After this book was written and distributed world wide, I received a letter from a Chinese etymologist in Taiwan who convinced me that an attempt at interpreting contemporary characters is futile, and that one should go back at least to the bronzeware characters. He suggested that I acquire certain books, so I sent hiim $50, and he sent the books. Another respondent to "Discovery" was Richard Broadberry, also in Taiwan, and in time we began working together---at a distance.
My introduction to the pictographic forerunners of today's characters was really a big step, and soon I agreed heartily with the philologist- one must research the ancient pictographs! Therefore, I do not recommend "Discovery" and have surely changed many character interpretations! I personally made several visits to Taipei and the wonderful Palace Museum there where Richard and I became acquainted with the even older
oracle bone pictograms. Since then our emphasis has been on these
older forms of the characters, and you have "God's Promise to the Chinese" which I daresay, Mike Wright has never examined. Mr. Wright is quoting from Wieger, with which I am well acquainted. This goes back only to the seal characters and the "Shuo Wen"---truly the Chinese scholars's reference----but this goes back only to about 2,000 B.C., and instead it is possible to go back to about 4,000 B.C. with the oracle bone graphs! For Richard and myself, this has been an exciting revelation-that the ancient Chinese did, indeed have a knowledge of the "Genesis story" of beginnings, but not a copy, but an "original!" I figure that this was acquired by word-of-mouth (Adam to Lamech--who was 56 years old when Adam died--to Noah--- to the Chinese, who were Noah's
contemporaries!) I am assuming that you are familiar with the geneological chronlogies of Genesis 5 and 11.
I am aware (thru notification by others) that there are other Web sites about Chinese characters, all using "Discovery." Consequently, I have finally been preparing a Web site, with the help of my granddaughter, that should be posted in a couple of months.
I could send you a copy of my fonts, but they are not catalogued, and would be very difficult for you to find your way in! What to do? I think the Koreans would be very interested in this, because most of them have some knowledge of Chinese characters. They really need copies of "God's Promise" to follow along. I could ship a case of 28 books to you by UPS--might cost a small fortune--but I would give your a 50% discount----about $6.00 per book, which could help defray the cost of the books which the Koreans would probably buy from you. I have two other books, "God and the Ancient Chinese" and "The Beginning of Chinese Characters" (50% would be $7.50 each) that I think you would also be quite interested in, for many questions are answered by these.
Glad you have an interest that I would like to "foster!"
Ethel Nelson
The problem with most of the books I have read on mythologies of aboriginal peoples is that the books are written by folks who consider Christianity a sort of mythology and therefore really do not understand the impact of some of what they are reporting. A very typical book in this vein is "The Myths of the North American Indians" by Lewis Spence, which I just skimmed through here. That many tribes believed in resurrection puzzles him, for he expected it to be reincarnation. But "in between the lines" is becomes extraordinarily clear that the ancient truths were maintained in the ancient cultures, including the rainbow covenant and the original promise by God in the beginning to provide rescue for humans.
It is the stories of the missionaries themselves which provide the greatest evidence of this.
I would look up more for you now but I had carpal tunnel surgery on my hand a week ago and it is starting to hurt to type and even turn pages in a book. I'm sorry. The stitches will be out Wednesday and I should be getting back to some kind of normalcy after that. So I'm going to quit for now, but I do recommend reading as many of the stories (many are published in books by the missionaries themselves) of work with farflung tribes and cultures as you can and I think it will become clear that whenever a missionary takes the time to learn the culture and the legends that he or she finds there is a hook left there by God to hang the truth of the Gospel on, for the ancient truths stayed, despite elaborations and additions through the years. And one of the most ancient of truths is that the Creator Himself would rescue men from their fallen state.
Looking at what I have here, I can recommend Bruce Olsen's "Bruchko", Christianson's "Peace Child" and "Eternity in their Hearts".
Here's a little more I found on the net:
http://www.donet.com/~rcooper/museum/search/misc/aclsc.htm
-- the book that link talks about is here: http://www.booksofthebible.com/p1331.html
Now, when Ethel Nelson was contacted about some criticisms regarding that book, she wrote the following to a friend of mine, and this may help even more -- keep in mind she no longer recommend the book, but so many people refer to it that I wanted to reference it here with her letter. Here is her letter in its entirety with the name of the person she wrote to left out :
I really appreciated your email to me, just received. First of all I should explain that I'm not addicted to the internet, and much passes by without my knowledge, so I do appreciate your references to various web sites. The site"Do Chinese Characters Tell us Something About Genesis?"
quotes mainly our first book, "Discovery of Genesis" that was written in 1979-all of 25 years ago! After this book was written and distributed world wide, I received a letter from a Chinese etymologist in Taiwan who convinced me that an attempt at interpreting contemporary characters is futile, and that one should go back at least to the bronzeware characters. He suggested that I acquire certain books, so I sent hiim $50, and he sent the books. Another respondent to "Discovery" was Richard Broadberry, also in Taiwan, and in time we began working together---at a distance.
My introduction to the pictographic forerunners of today's characters was really a big step, and soon I agreed heartily with the philologist- one must research the ancient pictographs! Therefore, I do not recommend "Discovery" and have surely changed many character interpretations! I personally made several visits to Taipei and the wonderful Palace Museum there where Richard and I became acquainted with the even older
oracle bone pictograms. Since then our emphasis has been on these
older forms of the characters, and you have "God's Promise to the Chinese" which I daresay, Mike Wright has never examined. Mr. Wright is quoting from Wieger, with which I am well acquainted. This goes back only to the seal characters and the "Shuo Wen"---truly the Chinese scholars's reference----but this goes back only to about 2,000 B.C., and instead it is possible to go back to about 4,000 B.C. with the oracle bone graphs! For Richard and myself, this has been an exciting revelation-that the ancient Chinese did, indeed have a knowledge of the "Genesis story" of beginnings, but not a copy, but an "original!" I figure that this was acquired by word-of-mouth (Adam to Lamech--who was 56 years old when Adam died--to Noah--- to the Chinese, who were Noah's
contemporaries!) I am assuming that you are familiar with the geneological chronlogies of Genesis 5 and 11.
I am aware (thru notification by others) that there are other Web sites about Chinese characters, all using "Discovery." Consequently, I have finally been preparing a Web site, with the help of my granddaughter, that should be posted in a couple of months.
I could send you a copy of my fonts, but they are not catalogued, and would be very difficult for you to find your way in! What to do? I think the Koreans would be very interested in this, because most of them have some knowledge of Chinese characters. They really need copies of "God's Promise" to follow along. I could ship a case of 28 books to you by UPS--might cost a small fortune--but I would give your a 50% discount----about $6.00 per book, which could help defray the cost of the books which the Koreans would probably buy from you. I have two other books, "God and the Ancient Chinese" and "The Beginning of Chinese Characters" (50% would be $7.50 each) that I think you would also be quite interested in, for many questions are answered by these.
Glad you have an interest that I would like to "foster!"
Ethel Nelson
The problem with most of the books I have read on mythologies of aboriginal peoples is that the books are written by folks who consider Christianity a sort of mythology and therefore really do not understand the impact of some of what they are reporting. A very typical book in this vein is "The Myths of the North American Indians" by Lewis Spence, which I just skimmed through here. That many tribes believed in resurrection puzzles him, for he expected it to be reincarnation. But "in between the lines" is becomes extraordinarily clear that the ancient truths were maintained in the ancient cultures, including the rainbow covenant and the original promise by God in the beginning to provide rescue for humans.
It is the stories of the missionaries themselves which provide the greatest evidence of this.
I would look up more for you now but I had carpal tunnel surgery on my hand a week ago and it is starting to hurt to type and even turn pages in a book. I'm sorry. The stitches will be out Wednesday and I should be getting back to some kind of normalcy after that. So I'm going to quit for now, but I do recommend reading as many of the stories (many are published in books by the missionaries themselves) of work with farflung tribes and cultures as you can and I think it will become clear that whenever a missionary takes the time to learn the culture and the legends that he or she finds there is a hook left there by God to hang the truth of the Gospel on, for the ancient truths stayed, despite elaborations and additions through the years. And one of the most ancient of truths is that the Creator Himself would rescue men from their fallen state.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Helen
Sorry to hear about your surgery. I hope you recover fully.
I read what you posted and followed the links. They were interesting, however, I didn't see anything about a "promise of redemption" in the ancient Chinese characters. Like the Gilgamesh epic, there is a knowledge of a great "flood" and other events in Genesis. How closely they followed the Genesis account I couldn't tell. That would take a lot of work to verify.
Again, with the reference to Christian missionaries being the "first" missionaries to an area, and finding some reference to a "promise"; how do we know these were the "first"? Perhaps they were the first in the modern era, but tradition holds that at least one of the Apostles (Phillip?) went to the far east (India?).
I had a history prof. in Seminary who kept a magazine article about ancient British artifacts found in North America. The articles dated to the 4th century. The speculation was that a small group of monks sailed the ocean to live a life of "solitude" in some new area.
It wouldn't surprise me, then, to see some mention in the North American Indian "lore" of a "promise" or a "great Spirit", when explorers arrived some 1000 years later.
The same could be said of every country on the earth, I guess.
peace to youraying:
Sorry to hear about your surgery. I hope you recover fully.
I read what you posted and followed the links. They were interesting, however, I didn't see anything about a "promise of redemption" in the ancient Chinese characters. Like the Gilgamesh epic, there is a knowledge of a great "flood" and other events in Genesis. How closely they followed the Genesis account I couldn't tell. That would take a lot of work to verify.
Again, with the reference to Christian missionaries being the "first" missionaries to an area, and finding some reference to a "promise"; how do we know these were the "first"? Perhaps they were the first in the modern era, but tradition holds that at least one of the Apostles (Phillip?) went to the far east (India?).
I had a history prof. in Seminary who kept a magazine article about ancient British artifacts found in North America. The articles dated to the 4th century. The speculation was that a small group of monks sailed the ocean to live a life of "solitude" in some new area.
It wouldn't surprise me, then, to see some mention in the North American Indian "lore" of a "promise" or a "great Spirit", when explorers arrived some 1000 years later.
The same could be said of every country on the earth, I guess.
peace to you
raying:
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Helen
The specific question I want you to answer is this. Do you believe that if someone in some far corner of the planet had never heard of Jesus Christ, but had some knowledge of the "promise of Genesis", that person could be saved by believing the "Genesis promise"? Please just tell me yes or no.
peace to youraying:
The specific question I want you to answer is this. Do you believe that if someone in some far corner of the planet had never heard of Jesus Christ, but had some knowledge of the "promise of Genesis", that person could be saved by believing the "Genesis promise"? Please just tell me yes or no.
peace to you
raying:Brother Bob
New Member
who is?
You know we call them the "heathen" and guess what they call us? "the heathen". So who is right?
You know we call them the "heathen" and guess what they call us? "the heathen". So who is right?