I'm asking you to state which Scripture is sufficient. The OT which the Bereans had? Genesis 1:1?
Scripture and Tradition
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Matt Black, Dec 3, 2007.
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Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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And this is in keeping with Paul's statement to Timothy about the scripture available to him "as a child" stating that even IT WAS sufficient.
These texts argue AGAINST your view that not only is OUR level of scripture (the full 66) STILL insufficient today - but how much MORE so was THEIR level of scripture (just the OT) INSUFFICIENT.
Instead of Acts 17:11 showing us that your POV is sustained in this test case it shows instead that MINE is. It is going 180 degrees in opposition to the direction you need it to go.
The "insufficiency of scripture" was NEVER the basis or argument for NT texts!!
in Christ,
Bob -
Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
So, I'm asking again, how much Scripture is necessary for salvation and matters of faith, doctrine and practice?
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If THAT level of scripture was SUFFICIENT for the Sola-Scriptura practice that we see in Acts 17:11 "for which the NT writer says they were blessed" then HOW MUCH MORE is that authority "Scripture" to be deemed as "sufficient" when we consider that it is not at the level of 66.
ADDING the NT to that "sufficient" authorotative text did not "MAKE IT INSUFFICIENT".
Clarifying the problem here for the "authority from tradition" group based on Acts 17:11 is just getting worse for the case you are trying to make.
in Christ,
Bob -
Obviously.
(Another point to consider - as an SDA I am basically "bullet proof" when it comes to trying to get me to turn against the authorotative position of the OT text -- I am somewhat unique on this board in literally endorsing the continued authority of ALL 66 books to a degee that exceeds even what some others who accept the 66 might feel comfortable endorsing!
You keep coming back at me with this "OT is not really sufficient" argument like you think I already have a doctrinal basis for such a position -- I don't. You might do better with that argument if made in discussion with a church of Christ member)
in Christ,
Bob -
Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Alright, let me rephrase the question for you, and this time I hope you'll answer it: how little Scripture is 'sufficient'?
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I am going to stick with the level that we find in Acts 17:11. The OT was clearly sufficient to judge even Paul Himself.
Since my arguments are in fact "sola scriptura" I am confined to using actual Bible examples - not making stuff up.
So let's say for example that you go back to the time of the writing of Isaiah - and you wanted to make your case that BACK THEN and ONLY back then "sufficient was insufficient".
In that case I would take you to Isaiah 7 and 8.
So then you go back to the time of David and the writing of the Psalms...
But in doing so your argument would have to be "although scripture WAS sufficient as of Acts 17 AND so much MORE so today... there used to be a time many centuries into the OT period when it is theoretically possible that my argument might have held up".
Are you really willing to settle?
in Christ,
Bob -
Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Nope:D If we are saying, then, that the OT alone - or even just part of the OT alone - is 'sufficient', then what's the point of the NT/rest of Scripture?
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I'm fine with saying the Scriptures are 'sufficient' but personally I need 'all' the help I can get. I'm not a minimalist Christian, I'm a maximalist Christian.
I also believe it's very important to understand that within the confines of 'Tradition' lies the very keys to a historical and consensual exegesis 'for' the Scriptures. This idea that Scripture and Tradition is somehow antithetical toward one another is not Biblical. -
If the OT text of Acts 17:11 is "sufficient to judge the teaching of Paul" to those people and IF that very TEST shows that we ARE to listen to Paul. It is totally nonsensical to THEN say "Well the bible AFFIRMS Paul so we do not need to listen to Paul" -- which is your point above.
That argument does not work at all.
INFORMATION has value - TEACHING has value EVEN BEYOND a base level that is "sufficient" to determine right from wrong doctrinal positions.
Somone has a calculator and it works it is "reliable" trustworthy -- so why have MP super computers? just melt them all down?
The argument you are making does nothing to invalidate the fundamental role scripture plays even in Acts 17.
in Christ,
Bob -
Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
So, what then if the 'very test' (to use your phrase above) in Scripture means that we are also to take heed of Tradition (as I've argued in the OP)*?
*Just as the Bereans, in addition to searching the (OT) Scriptures, were also to take heed of Paul's teaching -
I have no problem with the idea of "Testing tradition" as we would test "doctrine" to see if it is in violation of scripture.
My argument is never of the form "all tradition is proven to be in violation of scripture" -
I can use a ruler to measure the depth of water in my swimming pool to 8 feet.
I can not use the depth of water in my swimming pool to measure 8-ft lengths of board for cutting because the water level is subject to change -- the ruler is not.
I use scripture to judge doctrine and tradition. I do not use tradition to judge doctrine and scripture.
in Christ,
Bob -
Then he made the comment that since becoming an SDA some 6 years ago, he’s learned so much from Scripture with the aid of Ellen G. White’s interpretation.
I thought that was odd, considering he just blasted the Catholics in regard to the Pope and then in not so many words, he seemed to put E. G. White in the same position.
So Bob is it really just you and the Bible or is it you, the Bible and the SDA tradition? What happens if an interpretation of Scripture you have conflicts with that of Ellen Whites’?
ICXC NIKA
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Any acceptance of tradition or acceptance of a prophetic claim/statement/teaching must be subjected to the rule of "sola scriptura" even if that statement is from a prophet such as Ellen White.
Basically - there can be no exceptions to the rule - and for SDAs that means not even Ellen White.
I may read a Bible exposition by Calvin or Moody or Spurgeon or Charles Stanley or Chuck Swindoll and find their insights to be brilliant and very helpful in gaining a deeper understanding of scripture. But "still" I do not use them as the judge of scripture - scripture is the judge of their teachings.
The same would go for Ellen White.
no exceptions.
in Christ,
Bob -
I do hope people realize in the years following Christ and the putting together of the actual Bible all people had was oral tradition to go by. The Bible did't miraculously appear shorly after Christ ascended into Heaven following his resurrection.
Thre's absolutely NOTHING wrong with tradition. 2 Tessalonians 2:15 tells us to stand firm and to hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us. (New American Standard Bible)
If that's not referring to the traditions oral and written tradition that say is practiced in the RCC and other liturgical based religions then what does it refer to? The tradition ad fine art of bashing the RCC and other liturgical based religions and what they do and how it's blasphemy and goddess worship? -
2Tim 3:16 "ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration from God and profitable for..doctrine".
The scriptures existed. -
Christ used the Septuagint (Old Testament) when he walked on Earth. The actual Bible as we know it today was not complied immediate after Christ left Earth nor was it compiled within the first few 100 years or so after Christ left Earth. So, what did those people use? Yes, they had various scriptures, but not all scriptures since each scripture of the NT was written at varying times following Christ's departure!
Does this mean from the time Christ left Earth until the Bible as we know it today was complied that there were no true Christians on Earth? Please explain.
I gave you 2 Tessalonians 2:15 that said to stand firm and to hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us (New American Standard Bible) . You gave me 2Tim 3:16. Who's scripture is more right?
If ALL scripture is, as you said, is given by inspiration from God and profitable for doctrine then why is 2 Tessalonians 2:15 being ignored here? -
This is what is consistently referred to by the NT writers as "scripture".
And for us today - that would be 39 books of the actual Bible that we have today - though they likely grouped and numbered them as 22 not 39... but it was the same letters - the same 39 books.
In Luke 24 we see Christ explaining the Gospel "throughout ALL of scripture"
The point of "Sola scriptura" is not the "tradition does not exist" - rather it is that Tradition must be TESTED "sola scriptura".
Notice how Christ in Mark 7 "condemns tradition" that is in violation of scripture?
To assume that "all tradition must be good" is to err.
in Christ,
Bob -
So, in one area of the Bible it's condemned and in another part of the Bible it's encouraged. Which is it? Please englighten me.
I won't even dignify this with more of a response since you completely ignoired some of the things I said in my last post.
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