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SDA and the heresy on hell

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by rockytopva, Jan 30, 2018.

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  1. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Not at all, lol. What I have done is the same thing I do on a regular basis...

    ...I present Scripture that denies your doctrine and leaves you with no recourse but to dance around the point made.

    Here it is again, clear passages where "soul" cannot possibly be made out to be anything other than a reference to the persons in view:


    Two mistakes made by Annihilationists are...

    1. They improperly impose into the term "soul" a meaning not found in Scripture, which uses the term to refer to persons. A few examples this can be indisputably seen are...


    Genesis 12:5
    King James Version (KJV)

    5 And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.


    Genesis 46:18
    King James Version (KJV)

    18 These are the sons of Zilpah, whom Laban gave to Leah his daughter, and these she bare unto Jacob, even sixteen souls.


    Acts 7:14
    King James Version (KJV)

    14 Then sent Joseph, and called his father Jacob to him, and all his kindred, threescore and fifteen souls.


    Acts 27:37
    King James Version (KJV)

    37 And we were in all in the ship two hundred threescore and sixteen souls.



    Now, do these passages have a context where the "Souls" in view are not immaterial aspects of man's make-up or not?

    Why don't you respond to what's relevant to the point being made?

    Continued...
     
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    He has to choose between what the scriptures teach and what Ellen White did, do whichever he supports shows who is the real inspired to him!
     
  3. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Sorry, Bob, but satan will end up in Hell and there he will suffer for eternity:


    Matthew 25:41
    King James Version (KJV)

    41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:



    We know that Hell was prepared for Satan and his demons. What we also know is that man is going to end up there as well if he does not come into obedience to God's will during his lifetime. Those in view here, who are said to go into Hell are the unbelieving population still alive when Christ returns and establishes the Millennial Kingdom. Men and women.

    Next we see...


    Revelation 19:20
    King James Version (KJV)

    20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.



    ...the Antichrist and the False Prophet cast into Hell. Alive. They are not dormant, they have not ceased to exist, but they are cast into Hell and we see they are still there a thousand years later:


    Revelation 20:10
    King James Version (KJV)

    10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


    Even if one was to view this as referring only to Satan being tormented forever, they forget that the Antichrist and False Prophet have endured a thousand years of it already. The question is...why would one impose a separate fate for men in Hell from that of demons when Christ teaches both will go into Hell? And nowhere do we see a distinction made, "...only demons will endure eternal suffering.

    Men are in view here:

    Jude King
    James Version (KJV)

    6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

    12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;


    13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.



    We just can't nullify the terminology of all the teachings we have concerning Hell. And we cannot refute these explicit statements of everlasting punishment...


    Revelation 14:9-11
    King James Version (KJV)

    9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

    10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

    11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.



    The demons fear this torment...


    Matthew 8:28-29
    King James Version (KJV)

    28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.

    29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?



    And sadly, this...


    Matthew 10:28
    King James Version (KJV)

    28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.



    ...is lost on the annihilationist.

    But, if they can recognize the errors they make in regards to terms such as "soul," "sleep," and even the terms everlasting, and eternal, then perhaps they would begin to embrace the teaching of Scripture and repent of this doctrine.


    God bless.
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Ezek 28 regarding the devil -

    19 “All who know you among the peoples
    Are appalled at you;
    You have become terrified
    And you will cease to be forever.”’”

    Rev 20
    7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

    Exek 18:4 "the soul that sin - it shall die"

    =============================================
    I think you just shot your own argument in the foot at the end of your post
    Matt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    Ezek 18:4 "the Soul that sins it shall die"


    To the contrary "DESTROY the soul"

    Ezek 18:4 "the Soul that sins it shall die"

    Even Satan himself...


    True enough and as Ezek 28 says "reduced to ashes" and "you will cease to be forever"

    The point remains.


    No text says "suffer for eternity.
    Matthew 25 is a great chapter to not find "suffer for eternity"
    For that quote we would have to "quote you"
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    On the contrary - the annihilationist keeps quoting it.

    Matt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


    He is ABLE To save to the uttermost

    Heb 7:25 25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

    The Bible has no concept of "Able but never will" when it comes to God.
     
  6. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Bob, if you want to embrace Soul Sleep and annihilation, that is your right.

    I am satisfied that what has already been given shows that not a single point you have made...remains.

    In this post you apply destruction that is clearly physical in the text to a context which is eternal. Is this not what I said originally? THat this is the error of the Annihilationist and Soul Sleeper?

    That is the point which remains, my friend.

    And I gave several texts which shows eternal suffering. You would have me post them again?


    God bless.
     
  7. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    And it is still lost on them, as to what it means.

    They have to bring Scripture into conflict and present some radical notions because of the conflict they create. There is no harmony in the bible of the Annihilationist and soul sleeper.

    So keep quoting it, Bob. My hope is that one day it will sink in.


    God bless.
     
  8. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    What is the difference between an "eternal state" and the eternal life that Jesus offers? It seems to me that being physically death and spiritually dead is an "eternal state."

    You are claiming something that Jesus did not. He taught that the chaff will be burnt up and quoted Isaiah 66 as a vision of the aftermath of the final judgment where the "dead bodies" of those who have rebelled against God will be seen in dishonor, where the maggots won't die (they will eventually turn into flies) and "the fire will not be quenched."

    These persons are dead, not being tormented.

    Jesus almost ALWAYS contrasted eternal life with perishing, death or destruction. In one place, He refers to it as punishment. From the context of the rest of His teaching, we know that He means what we call "capital punishment." If God makes evil immortal, He is not destroying evil but perpetuating it.

    Those who are consumed in hell will not experience anything.
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    On the contrary - the annihilationist keeps quoting it.

    Matt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


    He is ABLE To save to the uttermost

    Heb 7:25 25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

    The Bible has no concept of "Able but never will" when it comes to God.

    That is beginning to look more and more like a "by faith alone" statement that should have had some facts instead.

    :)

    ]Matthew 10:28 "Fear Him who is able to DESTROY BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell".

    So while the Lake of Fire does provide literal torment of literal fire and literal brimstone to literal lost souls in literal lake of fire -- that supernatural event will end with the "destruction of BOTH body AND soul".


    Rev 20
    7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

    Exek 18:4 "the soul that sin - it shall die"


    Matthew 10:28 "DEsTROY both body and soul in fiery hell" as compared to those who merely "kill the body but unable to kill the soul".

    DESTROYED Sodom and Gomorrah
    -- Luke 17:29 in fire and brimstone.
    Destroyed by "reducing them to ashes" - 2 Peter 2:6 ... that city is gone.. buildings wiped out.


    Now see -- we do agree on the fact that it would be good for me to keep quoting it..

    Matthew 10:28 "DESTROY both body and soul in fiery hell" as compared to those who merely "kill the body but unable to kill the soul".

    DESTROYED Sodom and Gomorrah
    -- Luke 17:29 in fire and brimstone.
    Destroyed by "reducing them to ashes" - 2 Peter 2:6 ... that city is gone.. buildings wiped out.

    He is ABLE To save to the uttermost

    Heb 7:25 25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

    The Bible has no concept of "Able but never will" when it comes to God.
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Ezek 18;4 "the soul that sins it shall die"
    Not true in Ezek 18 -- since in that chapter the saints never die and all the wicked die

    But when it comes to "physical death" in this life BOTH the wicked and the saints die -- as we all know.
     
  11. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    I know, over and over and over...

    They have to, because their doctrine limits them to a few select proof texts which they think supports their doctrine. As I said, their conclusions are based on simplistic errors which apparently most will refuse to consider.


    And I am out of time, Bob, so I will come back to this and see if you have anything new we haven't already covered in the last couple of threads.

    Or if I am just bored.

    ;)


    God bless.
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Not true at all - as I have shown in my posts
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    And I am satisfied that the texts I have given have proven to be irrefutable so far.

    You have not posted a single text saying "eternal suffering" you yourself keep "saying it" but failing to actually post it.

    what you post are texts that you "infer" to mean "unending suffering". Proof by "extreme inference" is not the same thing as actually having a text that says "unending suffering" or "eternal suffering"
     
  14. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Changed my mind, going to go ahead and address this now.


    Absolutely irrelevant to either what I have said or to the discussion itself.


    Absolutely irrelevant to either what I have said or to the discussion itself.


    And you give the word "destroy only one meaning, just as you did with "glory."

    That is not the case (again):



    Matthew 10:28
    King James Version (KJV)

    28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.



    The point of the Lord is "Yes, men can kill you physically, but after that there is no more they can do to you. You, the person (soul) are still in existence, because men cannot kill on a spiritual basis, only in the physical."

    So what does it mean to "destroy a soul and body in Hell?"

    Let's cross reference another verse or two that uses the same word translated "to destroy" above (see link):


    Matthew 10:5-6
    King James Version (KJV)

    5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

    6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.



    Now wait a minute, if they have ceased to exist, just how exactly are the disciples going to minister to them?

    The answer is this: Israel was in a state of destruction when the Lord came. They had not ceased to exist, but, were separated from God, which is precisely the fate of the Lost.

    The destroying of Matthew 10:28 is no different, it is a state of destruction which has its root primarily the separation those in Hell will have from God.

    And when we look at the terminology and several very explicit statements of the everlasting nature of Hell elsewhere in Scripture, its easy to see that we cannot impose a cessation of existence into Matthew 28:10, just as we do not impose an immaterial aspect into every use of the word "soul." One might say, "But we see souls in Heaven!" That is true, because we see persons in Heaven. It is proper to say that someone who is dead is a soul, because they are still the same person. We don't call a dead body a soul, because the person is no longer with the body. God created man from the dust of the ground, breathed the breath of life into him, and he became a soul. Not that he was given one.

    One more:

    Matthew 18:11
    King James Version (KJV)

    11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.



    Well we can be certain that these who are in a state of destruction did not cease to exist. But again, the "lost," those in that state, are lost because they are separated from God. That is the condition man is born into, and that is the condition that must be remedied prior to his death.

    Or he goes into eternity in that condition.

    C'mon Bob...


    Continued...
     
  15. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Ezekiel 18
    New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    God Deals Justly with Individuals

    1 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying,

    2 “What do you mean by using this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying,

    ‘The fathers eat the sour grapes,
    But the children’s teeth [a]are set on edge’?

    3 As I live,” declares the Lord God, “you are surely not going to use this proverb in Israel anymore.

    4 Behold, all [c]souls are Mine; the [d]soul of the father as well as the [e]soul of the son is Mine. The [f]soul who sins will die.


    Here is the footnote:



    We will see that the context deals with the individual in the physical, in the temporal, and that physical life and death is in view. We know the Lord is not contradicting His teaching elsewhere by teaching here that men can gain eternal life through works (which are precisely what God is commanding them to do), which is the conclusion we are forced to draw if the death here is eternal.

    This is a physical context, not an eternal.

    And your choice translation denotes soul as referring to a person.

    Now, let's see what it is men do and don't do which will determine if they live or die:


    5 “But if a man is righteous and practices justice and righteousness,

    6 and does not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor’s wife or approach a woman during her menstrual period—

    7 if a man does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, does not commit robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing,

    8 if he does not lend money on interest or take increase, if he keeps his hand from iniquity and executes true justice between man and man,

    9 if he walks in My statutes and My ordinances so as to deal faithfully—he is righteous and will surely live,” declares the Lord God.

    Now Bob, I want you to seriously consider whether the Lord is saying "Men will have eternal life if they are righteous and practices justice and righteousness, do not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, defile his neighbor’s wife or approach a woman during her menstrual period, do not oppress anyone, restores to the debtor his pledge, does not commit robbery, gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing, does not lend money on interest or take increase, if he keeps his hand from iniquity and executes true justice between man and man, if he walks in My statutes and My ordinances so as to deal faithfully"


    Can you honestly deny the Gospel of Christ by saying God is teaching eternal life through works here? That is what you would be doing, teaching two means by which men can obtain eternal life. The Cross...and works.

    Is that what you are saying?


    Continued...
     
  16. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Every passage you present has a context of physical death.

    And what you ignore is that those at the end of the Millennial Kingdom, and of Sodom and Gomorrah...continued to exist despite being "destroyed."

    Learn the lesson, Bob. Destruction does not mean a cessation of existence.


    Continued...
     
  17. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Yep. In the hopes you might actually understand it one day.

    ;)


    Right, now pay attention, because this is what your mind sees when you read it:

    And fear not them which destroy the body, but are not able to destroy the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


    When this is what is actually stated:


    Matthew 10:28
    King James Version (KJV)

    28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


    Note what you say:



    I've already pointed this out but you refuse to cede the point, discuss it, address it, or in any way acknowledge it. You continue to attempt to make your antagonist (yours truly) repeatedly go over the same arguments.

    Destruction does not demand cessation of existence, and that has been shown to you.


    Its a physical destruction.

    But, as the point I have already made out, what is relevant is the destruction we see in Israel, and the "destroyed" Christ came to save.

    Still in existence, Bob.


    Again, simply not relevant to what I have said or to the discussion.

    I am sorry you have exhausted your arguments, and must now use distraction to keep your mind off the inarguable fact that your doctrine is in error.

    Makes it kind of boring Boib. Don't you guys have commentary somewhere by your own folk, where you could go and learn a better way to defend your doctrine?

    Here's an idea, go to GTY.ORG and read what John MacArthur says about Annihilation and Soul Sleep then come back...

    ...and say just the opposite.

    Perhaps we might have a more interesting discussion.


    God bless.
     
  18. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    What you have shown is that it is true, Bob.

    That is why you refuse to address a closer look at the word destroy, and acknowledge that it does not always impose cessation of existence. That is also why you interject irrelevant issues into the discussion. That is also why you continue to use physical contexts and impose eternal context into them.

    You poor soul!

    ;)


    God bless.
     
  19. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    All have been addressed and shown why they cannot be used as proof texts for annihilation.

    And stop repeating what I say, lol.


    I have:

    Sorry, Bob, but satan will end up in Hell and there he will suffer for eternity:


    Matthew 25:41
    King James Version (KJV)

    41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:



    We know that Hell was prepared for Satan and his demons. What we also know is that man is going to end up there as well if he does not come into obedience to God's will during his lifetime. Those in view here, who are said to go into Hell are the unbelieving population still alive when Christ returns and establishes the Millennial Kingdom. Men and women.

    Next we see...


    Revelation 19:20
    King James Version (KJV)

    20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.



    ...the Antichrist and the False Prophet cast into Hell. Alive. They are not dormant, they have not ceased to exist, but they are cast into Hell and we see they are still there a thousand years later:


    Revelation 20:10
    King James Version (KJV)

    10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


    Even if one was to view this as referring only to Satan being tormented forever, they forget that the Antichrist and False Prophet have endured a thousand years of it already. The question is...why would one impose a separate fate for men in Hell from that of demons when Christ teaches both will go into Hell? And nowhere do we see a distinction made, "...only demons will endure eternal suffering.

    Men are in view here:

    Jude King
    James Version (KJV)

    6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

    12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;


    13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.



    We just can't nullify the terminology of all the teachings we have concerning Hell. And we cannot refute these explicit statements of everlasting punishment...


    Revelation 14:9-11
    King James Version (KJV)

    9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

    10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

    11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.



    The demons fear this torment...


    Matthew 8:28-29
    King James Version (KJV)

    28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.

    29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?



    Is that your version of addressing Scripture provided to destroy your doctrine?

    You haven't even attempted to make this a discussion, and as usual, expect your antagonist to do all the work.

    But you know, Bob, this is typical for everyone holding to doctrine so weak they can't scrape together a few passages to support it. Deflection, false argument, and distraction.

    Just isn't going to cut it.


    So let me try to make this easier, and give you one passage to deny:


    Revelation 20:10
    King James Version (KJV)

    10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.



    You say...


    ...and...

    ...and I agree, I have posted considerably more than one, but, here is "one single text for you to debunk Eternal Torment with:


    Revelation 20:10
    King James Version (KJV)

    10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


    Now, I will mention that this is the same word used when the demons ask Christ if He has come to torment them before the time, so again we see Hell being a place of torment.

    Secondly, even if one tried to say only Satan and his demons are tormented day and night for ever and ever...it still destroys your assertion that everlasting judgment, punishment, and the sufferings of Hell are not for ever.

    Men will share the same fate of demons, as shown in 2 Peter 2 and Jude already.

    So the question is, will you cede the point that you are in error to say there will not ongoing and unending suffering in Hell?

    Your statement:

    The Scripture:

    Revelation 20:10
    King James Version (KJV)

    10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


    Does the Word of God mean what it states or not, Bob?

    Are you going to redefine what torment means? What day and night for ever and ever means?


    God bless.
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Destruction in the scriptures would be referring to one being in a state of ruined, in a condition apart from God....
     
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