Gladly, jne! :godisgood: We have had this discussion many times here on BB and it always comes down to "it's the same word in the Greek." Well, that may be but there are alternative renderings of it even in theological dictionaries.
I always go to Heb 11:1 -- "Faith is the substance of things [believed] hoped for and the evidence of things unseen." When we "believe," we are really
hoping" that the promises of God are true just like at the same time we hope for heaven "when it is all over." But when we ask Christ into our lives, an amazing thing happens -- we receive FAITH AND the Holy Spirit's regeneration. Guess what. That is SUBSTANCE and that is EVIDENCE that what God promised, what we hoped for, is TRUE!!
As I have also given before, faith = knowledge + assent + appropriation. That is, mind, emotion, and will are involved in repentance to God and conversion. Missing any of these is "missing the mark" (it's why many hear but aren't saved) BUT doing all of these is JUSTIFICATION -- step #1 in salvation. And the "outcome" of these is that God GIVES you faith, regeneration, ... all the gifts of the Spirit (1Cor 12:7-11)!
Does that answer your question or shall I go on?
Yes, the "righteousness of God" is the OT description of "justification." You realize, don't you, that in the OT they did not receive the "evidence" of the indwelling Holy Spirit. The interesting thing about the indwelling HS is that this is what is called "grace" in the NT. That is why this is called the "age of grace," jne. God "gave" faith in the OT. But in their case, it was secular proof - riches, honor, health, Prov 3:16 for example.
Picture yourself as Abram. You hear God. You do what He says (leave Ur -- or Noah, you start building the ark). You believe God but you have no "proof." Faith is not in intellectual assent -- it is in OBEDIENCE/appropriation!
Summary: faith begins with belief -- knowledge, assent, appropriation. When it gets past your SPIRIT (mind, emotions, and will), it changes your SOUL!
skypair
Sealed Forever
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by TCGreek, Jan 5, 2008.
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TC,
The wife "beckons." I'll look into that and get back tomorrow. :smilewinkgrin:
skypair -
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Now in our days, God then gives us "into the kingdom of His Son" with all the spiritual "benes" of sanctification --- the indwelling Spirit, the gifts of the Spirit (1Cor 12:7-11), the new birth, the adoption of sons, etc.
Whereas some might plead for God's grace and love, that isn't the way His justice operates.
(1Cor 15:29-41)
I'm glad you brought those verses to my attention and I will study and see if I have put too fine an edge on my "double edged sword." :laugh: The one thing I think you believe and agree on is that "Jesus saves," not grace. Grace is an outcome of salvation. It could be a precursor to salvation being that grace appears to be administered by the Holy Spirit. And God IS rich in mercy (not giving us what we do deserve) in forgiving our sins and grace (giving us what we don't and can't deserve) in saving us. But He only saves us "in Christ." We have to get "in" there somehow.
But there is also a reason why this is called the "age of grace" whereaas the previous was called "age of law." I am trying to show you that eternal salvation is through Jesus sacrifice -- not grace, not "election" -- but Jesus was "raised for our justification."
skypair -
Before you married, you hoped and believed your wife would follow through with her promise (and she you). You might have even used the word "faith" to describe it.
But what if she never began making preparations for the wedding or the honeymoon or the home and life you would share. Faith is "engendered" by works whereas belief or hope has no evidence or substance.
Dr Rogers used to give the good illustration that "spiritual growth is one step after another -- faith, works, faith, works,..." But it all starts with a hope and a
promise, doesn't it?
skypair -
In your illustration, it would be God hoping I would produce works. God is not hoping to see my fruit. To God my fruit is guaranteed in the new birth, for it is His production. If your illustration went the other way, I would be hoping God would keep His end of the salvation promise. I do not believe that this is the idea behind the word "faith" or "believe". The faith of Abraham counted God's promise as guaranteed & received it as such.
As I said before, there is no difference in the idea conveyed by the word's "faith" or "believe". There is to my knowledge no Scripture that says that God gives faith to the one who believes. That is, making a difference between the two. And seems unwarranted to make such a distinction. -
Dan V. -
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4. Yes, we are justified, declared righteous by grace---no well-bred Calvinist denies this.
5. God has grant sinners pardon because of His grace (Rom 3:21-30 makes that quite clear). But not until we put our faith in His Son and that divine transfer takes place, do we hear, Not guilty! (2 Cor 5:21, "For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ" NLTse).
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No. All who "believe" (know, assent, appropriate) receive the righteousness of God (justification) by faith (grace-gift of God) in Christ.
It is true. Righteousness is "GIVEN" to us, like faith and the indwelling Spirit/regeneration, by the grace of God. But the gospel is NOT grace unless it is believed. And it's pretty simple what the gospel is --- it is (in our case) either 1) "I'm saved in Christ" or 2) "I'm saved because I was chosen by God."
Most of the Jews made/make the latter mistake, too, BTW. "Our father Abraham blah, blah, blah" "To us belong the blah, blah, blah." They trusted in their nationality and in their religion, TC. They "undercut" what Christ came to establish.
TC, do you believe there is ANY judicial aspect of salvation? When is your "day in court?"
You may not have had this experience, TC. Canadyjd is, as well, hesitant to embrace the marriage analogy of Eph 5. Maybe you weren't a "new man" after you were saved. Maybe baptism only meant to you that one day you will be buried and then resurrected. I can understand it would be hard to comprehend something you had not experienced, TC.
skypair -
7. God opening my eyes to my sins didn't mean that my sins were forgiven--I had to trust Jesus for that to happen, but my eyes needed to be opened to my need for a Savior.
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I see you later agree to agree that it comes after repentance. ("We'll have to shake hands on Regeneration.") That's also as it should be. But now that we are uncovering so many flaws in Calvinism, don't you want to rethink the whole thing?
And then having these "resurrected" to new life! It's not the "sins" that are buried -- it's the SINNER!
skypair -
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Do you still not think that Calvinism gives us an imperfect picture of scripture?
skypair -
4. No where does Scripture teach that man is sovereign over his salvation.
5. I believe you are referring to Rom 6:13 not 5:13---at any rate, Paul is not speaking of the redemption of the body, but the believer be totally devoted to the service of God. -
Oh, and BTW, I found the marriage to each of us alludied to in Rom 7:4 -- "Wherefore... ye are dead to the law ... that ye might be married to another, even to Him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh..."
skypair -
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2. That's the type of move I see in Scripture that God takes first.
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Let me ask you -- do you consider everyone who goes to your "church" to be saved? That Christ is married already to believers and unbelieving "elect?" What? I'm having a hard time fathoming what this "church" that you say the analogy is to 1Cor 6:19-20. Are you saying that the "temple" there refers to the whole church and not to individuals?
skypair -
3. In fact, Paul was not ashamed to enumerate the countless sufferings he endured for the gospel's sake (2 Cor 11:23ff).
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