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Sheep or Goat?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, Apr 15, 2019.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    The other day someone on a thread made the statement that we are all goats,
    but some get "changed into Sheep".
    In Ezkiel 34 we see a description of the Great Shepherd,, seeking and saving His sheep.

    It does not mention goats being changed into sheep at all .
    Scripture does mention the sheep and goat judgment, but I see no support for a goat turning into a sheep. Does anyone support this idea, and if so do you want to offer a scripture that shows this?

    It seems clear the sheep of Ezk. 34 are the children given by the Father to the Son.
    '
     
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  2. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    Perhaps starting with a passage referring to people as "goats" would be a good start. That way we could all start on the same sheet of music.
     
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  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Mt.25:32 ,33 which is well known as the sheep and goat judgment speaks of the sheep being divided from the goats.
    In verse 34 it states,Come,ye blessed of My Father,inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

    There is no mention of goats in Ezk 34, or John 10.
    The sheep are only spoken of as sheep, not goats turned into sheep.
    In ezk34 God says...My sheep vs6...my flock.vs11 search my sheep,vs12my sheep......they were always His sheep even when scattered....He finds every one ...effectually.
     
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  4. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Yes, every one of them that are Israelites, as explicitly stated in verse 30-31:

    30 Then they will know that I, the Lord their God, am with them and that they, the Israelites, are my people, declares the Sovereign Lord.
    31 You are my sheep, the sheep of my pasture, and I am your God, declares the Sovereign Lord.’”

    As far as goats being changed into sheep, no, you don't see that analogy explicitly stated in scripture.
     
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  5. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    I don't see goats being changed to sheep as plausible. Elect are sheep, all else are goats.
     
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  6. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    Thank you.

    Matthew 25:32-33 NASBS
    All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
     
  7. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    ...nor for a tare to become wheat...
     
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  8. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Outwardly, through circumcision of the flesh and a particular DNA? Or inwardly, through a circumcision not made with hands, spiritually?
     
  9. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    At the time the scripture was written it was addressed to Jews who had been outwardly circumcised and carried a particular DNA. That was the audience. It is indisputable.
     
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  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    #10 37818, Apr 15, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019
  11. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Active Member
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    God has no obligation to the goats. His obligation to His sheep is to bring them into His family. The Holy Spirit is more than capable of doing that.

    Heb 12:8 KJV - But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
     
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  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The reason they are goats (Titus 2:11; Acts of the Apostles 7:51; Matthew 7:21-23). His sheep are sheep without merit on their part. The goats are trusting in merit, Matthrwe 7:22.
     
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  13. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    So we have seen that Jesus seeks and saves His sheep.
    Mt 25:34;
    Come,ye blessed of My Father,inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

    This plan for the sheep has been in place for a long time, and is right on schedule
     
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  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Lets see if I understand this thread?

    The lost are goats and His sheep are saved.

    When we are conceived in sin, and made sinners, we start out as lost goats.

    But when God puts us in Christ, and we undergo the circumcision of Christ, then arise in Christ a new creation we become His Sheep.

    So far so good.
     
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  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    No....that is the point. Goats are goats. Sheep are sheep. Jesus seeks and saves His sheep;
    ezk34;
    6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them.

    11 For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.

    12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them
     
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  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The issue is the lost are goats and the saved are His Sheep.

    Under the Old Covenant how did folks become His Sheep. Through faith according to Hebrews 11:1-2
     
  17. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Sheep are defined by God in ezk 34...God says He will seek and save His sheep.
    Heb11:1-2 does not mention sheep like Ezk 34.
    I will go with Ezk34
     
  18. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    @Iconoclast , you are correct about goats and sheep. A goat cannot become a sheep. In scripture, goats will always be goats. Even the Elect who are still children of wrath (Ephesians 2:3) are not described as goats.
     
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  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Just for laughs shall we point out the hermeneutical absurdity of taking an illustration device from passage and applying it in another passage.

    A lost person becomes a saved person when God redeems them.

    “Don’t read into ‘rams and he-goats’ (Ezekiel 34:17) the New Testament image of ‘sheep and goats’ as found in Matthew 25:31–46[​IMG], because in Bible times, it was customary for shepherds to have both sheep and goats in the flocks.” (Wiersbe)

    The issue in the passage is that the Shepherds have exploited God's people. God says He is against the Shepherds. Now if we would transfer that device into a passage in the New Testament, we would claim God is also against the good Shepherd. Which of course is as nonsensical as claiming the lost cannot be saved.
     
    #19 Van, Apr 16, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019
  20. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    Thank you very much! :Thumbsup:Thumbsup:Thumbsup

    Exactly. People are not born good and corrupted by society as political liberals believe. We are all lost until we become saved. John 3:16 says that by friend Whosoever can be saved.
     
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