Should SBC Churches adopt Neo Pentecostalism

[donnA]

drfuss: We have some Baptists churches in my area that: do not believe in eternal security, others do not allow women to wear slacks, and others are very charistmatic in their worship.

Saying that Pentecostals believe like the pentecostal church in your area is like me saying that Baptists: do not believe in eternal security, don't allow women to wear slacks, and are very charistmatic in their worship.

There are almost as many different types of Pentecostal churches as there are Baptist churches.

yeah and we have several types of pentecostal churches here,not just one, none teach truth of scripture.
The op question was broad, pentecostal is all it asked, not anyone certain type of pentecostal, I answered the op question, your off on a side road and apparently lost.

 

[Tom Butler]

yeah and we have several types of pentecostal churches here,not just one, none teach truth of scripture.
The op question was broad, pentecostal is all it asked, not anyone certain type of pentecostal, I answered the op question, your off on a side road and apparently lost.

donnA, you're right. Every Pentecostal or Charismatic group teaches error; none qualifies as a true New Testament Church. Why would Baptists want to be like them?

 

[TCGreek]

Whether Baptists admit it or not, they are tilting toward Pentecostalism. Twenty years ago, I never saw a hand raised in a Baptist worship service. Today you can go to most any SBC church and a significant number of hands will be in the air during singing and prayer.

And they are getting it. Praise the Lord!

 

[Alive in Christ]

Donna,

"Pentecostalism is full of error, why should anyone who desires to be biblical want to adopt their errors?"

Pentecostalism, generally, is no more filled with errors than our Baptist churches are. (I'm not talking about fringe pentecostals who might be way "out there", just like some Baptists groups are way "out there")

Most Pentecostals are "people of the scriptures" just like we are, and are sound scripturally....but they believe some things that most Baptists dont. But those things that they believe, that we Baptists generally dont, are backed up with much scriptural support.

"Baptism is a part of salvation and physically washes away sin, should we adopt that?"

None of the Pentecostal friends I have had believe that in the least.

"Holy Spirit does not indwell all beleivers, but only a special few, who can prove it by talking in tongues, should we adopt that?"

I have NEVER met any Pentecostals who believe that.

"That your only in obedience to God, only spiritual and love God if you speak in tongues, should we adopt that?"

I have never met any Pentecostals who believe that.

"If you don't speak in tongues you are sinning by resisting the Holy Spirit, should we adopt that?"

I've never heard any Pentecostals say that. They will say that if one does not speak in tongues they are missing a great blessing. And they might be right about that. Donna, you do know that there are Baptists who speak in tongues, dont you?

I have never spoken in tongues, but I have prayed to God that if He ever wants to bestow it upon me I would welcome it with open arms.

"Scripture is not authority, but emotions and expereince trump scripture,they have more authority over the christian, should we adopt that?"

Pentecostals do not believe that, Donna. At least not any that I have known personally, fellowshipped with, or seen on TV...other than some of the very extreme groups.

"I think not, I'll take scripture please."

And they do to.

I think you are taking some weird, fringe, out of balance Pentecostals that maybe you have seen on TBN or something and making a blanket condemnation of all pentecostals.

I have had friends who are fully Pentecostal. Many of them through the years. I have fellowshipped with them, and visited their churchs.

They are NOTHING like what you have described.


:godisgood:

 

[Alive in Christ]

Zenus,

"Originally Posted by Zenas
Whether Baptists admit it or not, they are tilting toward Pentecostalism. Twenty years ago, I never saw a hand raised in a Baptist worship service. Today you can go to most any SBC church and a significant number of hands will be in the air during singing and prayer."

Now, Zenus...could you please explain to me what in the world would bother you seeing Gods children lifting their arms as an expression of love and worship to their God and heavenly Father?


:godisgood:

 

[Alive in Christ]

Donna,

How would you feel if someone started posting on here and said something like this...

"How can you Baptists call yourselves "biblical"??. Going around this country disrupting burials and ceremonies by shouting "GOD HATES FAGS" and holding up signs with that trash on it. Why I've seen you Baptists from that Westboro Baptist church do this all over the country! You Baptists out to be ashamed of yourselves!

How would that make you feel, Donna? I know how I would feel. I would say...

"Listen here buster, that bunch of loonies, and others like them, doesnt represent in any way what MY church or what most Baptist churches are all about! You are completely off base in lumping all Baptists in with them!"

I think you, and a few others, are kind of doing that here with the pentecostals. Maybe not quite as extreme, but the same principle.


:godisgood:

 

[Zenas]

Zenus,
Now, Zenus...could you please explain to me what in the world would bother you seeing Gods children lifting their arms as an expression of love and worship to their God and heavenly Father?


:godisgood:

I didn't say I was bothered by it. It's just something that has appeared over the last 15-20 years along with the praise songs. Historically, neither of them were practiced by Southern Baptists, and historically, both of them have been practiced be Pentecostals. It's the same response most of us would have it the worshiper next to us made the sign of the cross after evey prayer.

 

[EdSutton]

We can learn what those gifts don't look like.

Sister donnA makes a very good point, here.

[See, I don't always disagree with you (or necessarily with any other), on the BB!]

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Whether Baptists admit it or not, they are tilting toward Pentecostalism. Twenty years ago, I never saw a hand raised in a Baptist worship service. Today you can go to most any SBC church and a significant number of hands will be in the air during singing and prayer.

'Proving' what, exactly??

I am not much of a 'hand-raiser' but that has absolutely zero to do with the content of a message, and/or beliefs of any, esp. "SBC", church.

Ed

 

[donnA]

None of the Pentecostal friends I have had believe that in the least.

I've NEVER seen a pentecostal who didn't, and in all the materail and books by pentecsotals I've ever read I've never read one who didn't.

I have NEVER met any Pentecostals who believe that.

Again, any pentecostal materal you read tells about how the Holy Spirit does not indwell all christians, but only those who can prove it by speaking in tounges.
I have NEVER met a pentecostal who didn't.

I have never met any Pentecostals who believe that.

EVERY pentecostal I've ever heard believed this. You can only be obedient to God if you speak in tongues.

you do know that there are Baptists who speak in tongues, dont you?

Of course I know this, but are they using true biblical tongues, or the same gobbldy gook of the pentcostal churches?

Pentecostals do not believe that, Donna. At least not any that I have known personally, fellowshipped with, or seen on TV...other than some of the very extreme groups.

EVERY pentecostal anything I've ever seen, read or watched preached about expereince, and never cared if scripture did not support their expereince, most of their expereinces are not biblical, yet they preach them, teach them, and tell people this si of God, when in fact it is not.

And they do to.

as long as it supports their error, if it proves them wrong they stay away from it.

I think you are taking some weird, fringe, out of balance Pentecostals that maybe you have seen on TBN or something and making a blanket condemnation of all pentecostals.

Not at all, like I said, EVERY pentecostal I've ever met, or heard, or read.
Not to mention my grandmother was from Chicago, and she went a few times with a family member to a pentecostal church and a few bible studies, and they were all like I have described. She was even told she wasn't a christian becasue she did not speak in tongues.
I've been told the samething by many pentecostals.

 

[donnA]

Donna,

How would you feel if someone started posting on here and said something like this...



How would that make you feel, Donna? I know how I would feel. I would say...




I think you, and a few others, are kind of doing that here with the pentecostals. Maybe not quite as extreme, but the same principle.


:godisgood:

Neither me nor my church teaches people lies about the bible, so it would not apply to me.

 

[Zenas]

'Proving' what, exactly??

I am not much of a 'hand-raiser' but that has absolutely zero to do with the content of a message, and/or beliefs of any, esp. "SBC", church.

Ed

It has nothing to do with the content of a message but it proves that Southern Baptists look and act a lot more like Pentecostals than they used to even if they don't believe any differently.

 

[EdSutton]

It has nothing to do with the content of a message but it proves that Southern Baptists look and act a lot more like Pentecostals than they used to even if they don't believe any differently.

This may well be true, but it still completely fails the "So What?" test.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Neither me nor my church teaches people lies about the bible, so it would not apply to me.

:saint:

>

>

>



Ed

 

[Thinkingstuff]

There are a couple of people at my SBC who raise their hands, however, my pastor has made it clear that speaking in tongues would be not acceptable due to disruption of the service. But over all the number of people who want to get into charasmatic type of worship are few.

I have several problems with Pentecostals not to mention that there is historical precident for their fallacy (montanism). Fist Pentecostals come out of the Holiness movement. I don't how many of you know about this movement but they are very legalistic. They believe every believer goes through two baptisms the second one (in the HS) enables you to do works. So you can be saved but aren't consider "holy" until you get to the point where you are acceptable and are baptized in the HS. Once you are the only valid sign that you have this secondary baptism is if you speak in tongues. Which sounds like babbeling. People run the isles, scream, break into something that looks like an epileptic seizure, are "slain" in the spirit (swoon, pass out). They believe you can loose your salvation which means, for some, that they are spiritually in danger of this if they "feel" that God is no longer filling them. The faiths that jump out of these type faiths are Jim Jones (Assemblies of God), and Snake Handling faiths (Church of God of Prophesy from the Church of God). Do people really think this is superior to our baptist churches? I have serious conserns about pentecostal type faith. It's growing quickly in Latin American culture just for the reason it apeals to the emotions. At some point logic takes a back seat. I seen all sorts of horrible things coming out of Pentecostal settings. I made the mistake of wondering more about this type of faith (since I knew nothing about it) and figured I can get a liberal arts degree while seeing what this faith teaches. I went to Lee College (Church of God) received an accounting degree but found out that this faith can undermind Christianity. I can tell you about the lack of graciousness, the deception, and weirdness I experienced at that university. But let me be fair. Most of the undergrad professor were quite well behaved and interestingly enough several undergrad proffs Taught from a calvinistic point of view. It was the graduate proffessors that took and taught the armeniest point of view. I've heard sermons about how education will destroy faith. I've heard students say they aren't having church unless they are running the aisles. I've seen men hit on women when they were "laying on of hands" in prayer. I've seen a pastor want to be get a girl drunk sleep with her then say since they've already done so they have to get married. I've seen people falsly prophesy to others. Now I've seen speaking in tongues and the "interpretation" was always a quote from psalms. I've learned enough to stay away. So I do and I get nervous when I hear someone start to say we need to have worship services like them.

 

[donnA]

Pentecostal error, or truth according to some here. I wonder about where it severaly countradicts their baptist beliefs.

• Every Christian is wise (and biblical) to seek his/her own personal baptism with the Holy Spirit.
•• At salvation you are “BORN” of the Holy Spirit.
• (2:4) At Pentecost you are “FILLED with the Holy Spirit.”
• It is one thing (surely a great thing!) to be born of the Spirit. It is an entirely other experience to be filled with, to be baptized with, the Holy Spirit.
•• (2:4) And something dramatic happens. You begin to “speak in other TONGUES.” The same resulting evidence of speaking in tongues occurs in Acts 10:44-46, in Acts 19:1-6, and in the apostle Paul’s life (First Corinthians 14:18). It was the same experience received by the first 120 at Pentecost (compare Acts 2:1-4 with Acts 11:15-17).

I see, if you have the Holy SPirit at all you speak in tongues.
http://www.jimfeeney.org/pentecostalreligionbeliefs.html
http://www.jimfeeney.org/tonguesinitialevidence.html

They believe that the ability to speak in tongues is a necessary indication of a valid religious conversion.. They deny the legitimacy of the conversion of hundreds of millions of "born again" Christians from other denominations where tongues are rarely, if ever, spoken. "No tongues - no salvation." So, for example, they would regard most Southern Baptists as unsaved, even though most had gone through the same process of sincerely repenting of their sins and trusting Jesus as their Lord and Savior, just as most UPCI members have.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_pent.htm

The doctrinal views of the UPCI reflect most of the beliefs of The Pentecostal movement, with the exception of the “second work of grace”, the historic doctrine of the Trinity and the traditional Trinitarian formula in water baptism. It embraces the Pentecostal view that speaking in tongues is the initial sign of receiving the Holy Spirit.

expereince, not bible.
http://www.538hope.org/belief.html

We believe in the present ministry of the Holy Spirit by whose indwelling, fullness can bring entire sanctification and the Christian is enabled to live a godly life in holiness bearing the fruit of the Spirit, and by whose baptism can bring the baptism into the Holy Spirit through which the Christian is able to experience the Power of God by manifesting the gifts of the Spirit. Both of these ministries of the Holy Spirit are separate and distinct experiences subsequent to salvation, providing for life and service.

want to be sanctified, you have to be baptized by the Holy Spirit, seperate from conversion and salvation, at a later date.
http://www.pentecostalchurch.info/index.Doctrine.htm
same site,

Baptism into Fullness or Entire Sanctification (Christian Perfection) by the fire of the Holy Spirit, to cleanse the heart from sin and bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit.
Baptism into the Holy Spirit for service with tongues as the initial evidence of that baptism and then availability to the nine gifts of the Holy Spirit manifesting and being exhibited through the life.
snip
Some people have been taught to interpret this statement in the sense that we are cleansed from all sin: past, present and future sins
snip
If a person has been cleansed from all sin, how much sin can he have?
snip
The baptism of the Holy Ghost for believers, with signs following.
Expanded Doctrine
God intends all Christians to know a definite experience of the presence and power of the Holy Spirit. This baptism will result in clear evidences of the Spirit’s work.
When we read the Bible there are many instances recorded where people had a definite experience of being filled by the Holy Spirit. This is how the church actually came into existence.
This continued right through the New Testament and there is no record of this ceasing. As a result, even today, people still have similar experiences. If people needed this baptism in Bible times, they still need it today.
This baptism is to give the individual a strength or power to live as a Christian and not for a novel/nice experience.
The initial sign and evidence is ‘speaking in tongues’ –speaking in an ‘unknown language’, which is clearly inspired by God
snip
Many people think they can do what they like when they have become Christians, because they are ‘saved’. This is a misunderstanding of Scripture and an insult to God.

snip

http://www.pentecostalchurch.info/index.Church.Doctrine.htm

Question: What is Entire Sanctification?
Answer: The Pentecostal Holiness Church believes that, after conversion, but before death, a believer's heart may be cleansed from all sin.

snip
Question: Didn’t I receive the Holy Spirit when I was saved?
Answer: Yes. No one can be saved apart from the Holy Spirit (John 3:5). But
the fullness of the spirit, or the baptism of the Holy Spirit, comes after
you have been saved and then make a complete commitment of your all
to God (Acts 19:2).

http://www.pentecostalchurch.info/index.Entire.Sanctification.htm

We believe that all Christians are entitled to and should ardently expect and earnestly seek the promise of the Father, the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. This gift from God endows the believer with power for life and service, the bestowment of the gifts and their uses in the work of the ministry (Luke 24:49; Acts 1:4-8; 1 Corinthians 1:31). The Baptism of believers in the Holy Ghost is witnessed by the initial physical sign of speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives them utterance (Acts 2:4).
snip
We believe the Scriptures teach a life of holiness without which no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). By the power of the Holy Ghost we are able to receive the command: “Be ye Holy for I am Holy” (I Peter 1:15-16).

If you aren't perfect and sin free you can not go to heaven?

We believe sanctification from that which is evil, and of dedication to God (Romans 12:1-2; 1 Thessalonians 5:23; Hebrews 1:12). Sanctification is realized in the believer by recognizing his identification with Christ in His death, resurrection and by offering every faculty continually to the dominion of the Holy Spirit (Romans 6:1; 8:1-2 & 13; and Gal 2:20).

really, thought it was a process in us done by God, not by the person, as stated above.

We believe divine healing is an integral part of the Gospel. Deliverance from sickness is provided in the atonement and is the privilege of all believers (Isaiah 53:4-5; Matthew 8:16-17; James 5:14-16). http://www.ptspice.org/about/beliefs/

Baptism with the Holy Ghost subsequent to cleansing; the enduement of power for service. Matthew 3:11; Luke 24:49, 53; Acts 1:4-8.
The speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives utterance as the initial evidence of the baptism in the Holy Ghost. John 15:26; Acts 2:4; 10:44-46; 19:1-7.
snip
Divine healing provided for all in the Atonement. Psalm 103:3; Isaiah 53:4, 5; Matthew 8:17; James 5:14-16; 1 Peter 2:24.

http://www.churchofgod.org/about/doctrinal_commitments.cfm
from the same site

In the baptism with the Holy Ghost subsequent to a clean heart.
In speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance and that it is the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
snip
Divine healing is provided for all in the atonement

http://www.churchofgod.org/about/declaration_of_faith.cfm


If the error taught by the penetacostal churches is only a few, fringe groups, then why is it all over every pentecostal site I find.

 

[TCGreek]

SB churches are not perfect either.

Let's quit the bashing on our Pentecostal brothers and sisters.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Pentecostal error, or truth according to some here. I wonder about where it severaly countradicts their baptist beliefs.

I see, if you have the Holy SPirit at all you speak in tongues.
http://www.jimfeeney.org/pentecostalreligionbeliefs.html
http://www.jimfeeney.org/tonguesinitialevidence.html



http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_pent.htm

expereince, not bible.
http://www.538hope.org/belief.html

want to be sanctified, you have to be baptized by the Holy Spirit, seperate from conversion and salvation, at a later date.
http://www.pentecostalchurch.info/index.Doctrine.htm
same site,
http://www.pentecostalchurch.info/index.Church.Doctrine.htm


http://www.pentecostalchurch.info/index.Entire.Sanctification.htm

If you aren't perfect and sin free you can not go to heaven?
really, thought it was a process in us done by God, not by the person, as stated above.

http://www.churchofgod.org/about/doctrinal_commitments.cfm
from the same site
http://www.churchofgod.org/about/declaration_of_faith.cfm


If the error taught by the penetacostal churches is only a few, fringe groups, then why is it all over every pentecostal site I find.

Donna take a look at my post. I went to Lee College in Cleveland TN for 4 years this is what I encountered.

 

[drfuss]

Pentecostal error, or truth according to some here. I wonder about where it severaly countradicts their baptist beliefs.

I see, if you have the Holy SPirit at all you speak in tongues.
http://www.jimfeeney.org/pentecostalreligionbeliefs.html
http://www.jimfeeney.org/tonguesinitialevidence.html



http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_pent.htm

expereince, not bible.
http://www.538hope.org/belief.html

want to be sanctified, you have to be baptized by the Holy Spirit, seperate from conversion and salvation, at a later date.
http://www.pentecostalchurch.info/index.Doctrine.htm
same site,
http://www.pentecostalchurch.info/index.Church.Doctrine.htm


http://www.pentecostalchurch.info/index.Entire.Sanctification.htm

If you aren't perfect and sin free you can not go to heaven?
really, thought it was a process in us done by God, not by the person, as stated above.

http://www.churchofgod.org/about/doctrinal_commitments.cfm
from the same site
http://www.churchofgod.org/about/declaration_of_faith.cfm


If the error taught by the penetacostal churches is only a few, fringe groups, then why is it all over every pentecostal site I find.

drfuss: Donna, you have pointed out things about the Pentecostal Church of God that I was not aware of. Apparently, the Church of God as a denomination does reflect what you say.

My experience has been with two other pentecostal denominations. Up until 16 years ago, I had attended a number of pentecostal churches (Assemblies of God and Foursquare Gospel) for 40 years. This does not mean that I now agree with all of the doctrines of those Pentecostal Churches. Not once did I hear any aspect of salvation being connected with speaking in tongues. Also, it was taught that Christians who had not spoken in tongues, had the Holy Spirit. THe Baptism of the Holy Spirit was encouraged to be sought, and was taught as a kind of second blessing that resulted in a deeper walk with the Lord.

Concerning the Church of God denomination, my brother (a retired Fousquare minister) was on the staff of a large Pentecostal Church of God church for a number of years. I had asked him about the Pentecostal Church of God beliefs, and he said that the church he was with, taught no different than the Foursquare and the Assemblies of God denominations on these isssues. Apparently, he had not read the denomination's official beliefs on these issues which were not taught in that church. Thanks for making me aware of the Pentecostal Church of God beliefs on these issues.

My understanding is that the Pentecostal Church of God has the most churches in the United States of any Pentecostal denomination. However, just like we have to say that there are various beliefs among churches that call themselves Baptist, the same type of variations occurs among churches that are Pentecostal. So it is best not to make sweeping statements about what Baptist beliefs are, or about what Pentecostal beliefs are. We should say some Baptists or some Pentecostals.

 

[drfuss]

drfuss: Donna, you have pointed out things about the Pentecostal Church of God that I was not aware of. Apparently, the Church of God as a denomination does reflect what you say.

My experience has been with two other pentecostal denominations. Up until 16 years ago, I had attended a number of pentecostal churches (Assemblies of God and Foursquare Gospel) for 40 years. This does not mean that I now agree with all of the doctrines of those Pentecostal Churches. Not once did I hear any aspect of salvation being connected with speaking in tongues. Also, it was taught that Christians who had not spoken in tongues, had the Holy Spirit. THe Baptism of the Holy Spirit was encouraged to be sought, and was taught as a kind of second blessing that resulted in a deeper walk with the Lord.

Concerning the Church of God denomination, my brother (a retired Fousquare minister) was on the staff of a large Pentecostal Church of God church for a number of years. I had asked him about the Pentecostal Church of God beliefs, and he said that the church he was with, taught no different than the Foursquare and the Assemblies of God denominations on these isssues. Apparently, he had not read the denomination's official beliefs on these issues which were not taught in that church. Thanks for making me aware of the Pentecostal Church of God beliefs on these issues.

My understanding is that the Pentecostal Church of God has the most churches in the United States of any Pentecostal denomination. However, just like we have to say that there are various beliefs among churches that call themselves Baptist, the same type of variations occurs among churches that are Pentecostal. So it is best not to make sweeping statements about what Baptist beliefs are, or about what Pentecostal beliefs are. We should say some Baptists or some Pentecostals.

drfuss: Donna, having looked more at the Pentecostal Church of God Website, it only reflects a small part of what you say.

Quote:
In the baptism with the Holy Ghost subsequent to a clean heart.
In speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance and that it is the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
snip
Divine healing is provided for all in the atonement. Unquote.

The first line is new to me and is not taught by the Assemblies of God or the Foursquare Gospel churches.

The second part does not say a Christian who has not spoken in tongues does not have the Holy Spirit. You surmise that is what it means. It says speaking in tongues is "evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit". I could not find in their statement of faith if they believe a Christian who has not spoken in tongues has the Holy Spirit.

The third part is not a part of our discussion, but many Pentecostal churches believe that. I talked to an Assemblies of God Official a few years ago. As a result of me questioning their healing belief which is similar to the Church of God, he said then that they were backing away from that belief.

The other denominations you quoted are smaller and I have no experience with them.

So to repeat my concluding remarks above: It is best not to make sweeping statements about what Baptist beliefs are, or about what Pentecostal beliefs are. We should say some Baptists or some Pentecostals.