Should SBC Churches adopt Neo Pentecostalism

[Jim1999]

Shucks! In my early days baptists were raising their hands and shouting amens and even hallelujahs. All of a sudden they calmed down. We sure weren't pentecostal!

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Tom Butler]

Going back to the OP, I see it basically as asking if we Baptists should ACT like Charismatics, not adopt their doctrines.

Some observations out of my own experience:

Many charismatics reject any identity with Pentecostals. They see themselves as more sophisticated and better educated and more yuppie than the Pentecostals. They would be horrified to be called Holy Rollers. A charismatic friend of mine told me so.

The worship style of Charismatics and Pentecosts is not necessarily spontaneous. First it is taught. Second, worship leaders guide the congregation in the practices.

In one charismatic service I attended, folks were chatting when suddenly drums began a steady rhythmic beat, the worship leader began clapping his hands. The congregation joined in, but he urged them more "C'mon, we've got to get in the spirit," he shouted. Once the folks had been whipped up to a frenzy, he began the singing, folks began dancing and raising hands.

Don't get me wrong. The congregation was a willing participant. My host told me that sometimes, their pastor (a former Methodist) had to tell people to stop because they had gotten out of control.

We have some hand-raisers in my church. I'm one of them. But not all the time. And I would resent a worship leader trying to encourage it as a regular practice.

I'm suspicious when the "spirit" has to be worked up, and people are willing to be manipulated into it.

 

[Jim1999]

I tell you a truth. It was also reported in the Toronto Star newspaper,,a major newspaper in Canada...when Oral Roberts held a crusade in Massey Hall, he had the chairs wired in such a way that a charge entered the chair and certain peoples in the assembly. It was used so people cold "feel" teh Spirit move. This was in the 50's. He had great difficulty getting more meetings in Toronto after that, even in Pentecostal assemblies.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[thegospelgeek]

Going back to the OP, I see it basically as asking if we Baptists should ACT like Charismatics, not adopt their doctrines.

Some observations out of my own experience:

Many charismatics reject any identity with Pentecostals. They see themselves as more sophisticated and better educated and more yuppie than the Pentecostals. They would be horrified to be called Holy Rollers. A charismatic friend of mine told me so.

The worship style of Charismatics and Pentecosts is not necessarily spontaneous. First it is taught. Second, worship leaders guide the congregation in the practices.

In one charismatic service I attended, folks were chatting when suddenly drums began a steady rhythmic beat, the worship leader began clapping his hands. The congregation joined in, but he urged them more "C'mon, we've got to get in the spirit," he shouted. Once the folks had been whipped up to a frenzy, he began the singing, folks began dancing and raising hands.

Don't get me wrong. The congregation was a willing participant. My host told me that sometimes, their pastor (a former Methodist) had to tell people to stop because they had gotten out of control.

We have some hand-raisers in my church. I'm one of them. But not all the time. And I would resent a worship leader trying to encourage it as a regular practice.

I'm suspicious when the "spirit" has to be worked up, and people are willing to be manipulated into it.

Amen.. Hallelujah! (Shouted as I stand, hands raised, and run the aisles)

 

[Zenas]

In one charismatic service I attended, folks were chatting when suddenly drums began a steady rhythmic beat, the worship leader began clapping his hands. The congregation joined in, but he urged them more "C'mon, we've got to get in the spirit," he shouted. Once the folks had been whipped up to a frenzy, he began the singing, folks began dancing and raising hands.

The worship leader? Since when did the minister of music become the worship leader? Do you really think doing all that crazy stuff is worship? Real worship is a quiet contemplative reflective experience, not something to get you all worked up with rythm and noise. If it didn't have the accouterments of religion (church pews, pulpit, perhaps a cross somewhere), you couldn't tell whether you were in a church or a rock concert. If you think I'm exaggerating you should go to a rock concert. The similarities will amaze you. Baptists are going this way at an alarming speed, a movement that a good friend of mine calls "Bapticostal."

 

[Tom Butler]

The worship leader? Since when did the minister of music become the worship leader? Do you really think doing all that crazy stuff is worship? Real worship is a quiet contemplative reflective experience, not something to get you all worked up with rythm and noise. If it didn't have the accouterments of religion (church pews, pulpit, perhaps a cross somewhere), you couldn't tell whether you were in a church or a rock concert. If you think I'm exaggerating you should go to a rock concert. The similarities will amaze you. Baptists are going this way at an alarming speed, a movement that a good friend of mine calls "Bapticostal."

Ministers of Music became worship leaders when it was decided that worship equaled the music. Frankly, if the pastor is not the worship leader, something's not right.

I'm with you, Zenas. I think we have lost a sense of awe in the presence of an almighty God. I tell you, if Jesus were to walk into a service at my church, I guarantee you we would not be jumping up and down, shouting and swaying. We would be flat on our face before the Creator of the Universe, saying, as Isaiah when it happened to him, "Woe is me, I am undone."

An aside, sometimes I think some folks to the hand-raising, etc., just to demonstrate how spiritual they are. My people excepted, of course.

 

[ShotGunWillie]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenas
Whether Baptists admit it or not, they are tilting toward Pentecostalism. Twenty years ago, I never saw a hand raised in a Baptist worship service. Today you can go to most any SBC church and a significant number of hands will be in the air during singing and prayer.

rbell -
Sorry, that is not pentacostal.

That is expressionistic worship--which is neither good nor bad in itself, and has nothing to do with pentecostal beliefs.

The fact that there are churches who would fight over such is sad.

Twenty years ago I attended a small church in central Missouri, the congregation was evenly mixed with blacks and whites, this was an SBC church, not only was their hands lifted in praise during the song singing, during the sermon, during the invitation, there was also "amens" "wells" "preach its" "tell'ems" and some swaying going on the in the choir loft.

Was David a member of the PC?

I agree with RBell's stance on the subject you brought forth as evidence of the Pentacostal movement.

Oh, and for the record, does the Holy Spirit no longer move?

 

[rbell]

Ministers of Music became worship leaders when it was decided that worship equaled the music. Frankly, if the pastor is not the worship leader, something's not right.

I'm with you, Zenas. I think we have lost a sense of awe in the presence of an almighty God. I tell you, if Jesus were to walk into a service at my church, I guarantee you we would not be jumping up and down, shouting and swaying. We would be flat on our face before the Creator of the Universe, saying, as Isaiah when it happened to him, "Woe is me, I am undone."

An aside, sometimes I think some folks to the hand-raising, etc., just to demonstrate how spiritual they are. My people excepted, of course.

There is a paradox of being in God's presence.

Psalms 100 says, "Make a joyful noise to the Lord, all you lands;
Serve the Lord with gladness, come before His presence with singing!"

Habakkuk 2 says, "The Lord is in his holy temple; let all flesh keep silence before Him."

If our corporate (and personal) worship is all celebration, or all "woe is me," we're leaving something out.

There are times for "hallelujah!" moments, time for "maranatha" moments, time for "amen" moments, and time for "abba" moments.

BTW...I agree with you that we've messed up equating worship with music.

 

[Tom Butler]

There is a paradox of being in God's presence.

Psalms 100 says, "Make a joyful noise to the Lord, all you lands;
Serve the Lord with gladness, come before His presence with singing!"

Habakkuk 2 says, "The Lord is in his holy temple; let all flesh keep silence before Him."

If our corporate (and personal) worship is all celebration, or all "woe is me," we're leaving something out.

There are times for "hallelujah!" moments, time for "maranatha" moments, time for "amen" moments, and time for "abba" moments.

BTW...I agree with you that we've messed up equating worship with music.

We're agreed. The problem comes when we tilt too far in one direction or the other.

 

[rbell]

We're agreed. The problem comes when we tilt too far in one direction or the other.

Hey...maybe we could find a solution!

Do it like a pinball game...when a church tilts too far, everything stops and a "tilt" light comes on.

Of course, since you and I obviously have it figured out, we should set it up. No since in anyone with a mere three-digit IQ trying to do such a job... :applause:

 

[Tom Butler]

Hey...maybe we could find a solution!

Do it like a pinball game...when a church tilts too far, everything stops and a "tilt" light comes on.

Of course, since you and I obviously have it figured out, we should set it up. No since in anyone with a mere three-digit IQ trying to do such a job... :applause:

Some churches think they've already found the solution, with different kinds of services--contemporary for the yuppies, traditional for the old fogeys, and blended for those who dont' know what they are.

Shoot, Saddleback has (or used to have) a country/western-style service, with line-dancing lessons after the service.

I like your pinball machine idea. Since you thought of it, I'll let you run with it.

 

[Marcia]

SB churches are not perfect either.

Let's quit the bashing on our Pentecostal brothers and sisters.

This isn't about which churches are perfect, but about the distinctiveness of Pentecostal beliefs vs. Baptist beliefs. Both have certain distinctions.

Pentecostalism can be traced back historically. It's not just what anyone wants it to be.

Most consider the father of Pentecostalism to be Charles Parham, a young college student from Kansas with roots in the Methodist Church. While the Wesleys (John & Charles) could not be defined as Pentecostals, their theology laid the foundation upon which the Pentecostal movement would be built. Principally, it was the Methodist view that sanctification was a second work of grace, separate from salvation, coupled with the Holiness belief of a third experience, the "Baptism with the Holy Ghost and fire," that intrigued Parham. Parham was also influenced by a fresh desire within his denominational circles to experience divine healing and speaking in tongues -- practices that most Christians at the end of the nineteenth century believed had ceased with the Apostolic age.

....Unlike charismatics, who by definition have infiltrated every denomination and doctrinal persuasion, Pentecostals have definite theological distinctives. Below are some important doctrinal issues in Pentecostalism.

......Some Pentecostal denominations are:
Church of God in Christ
International Church of the Foursquare Gospel Church of God (Tenn.)
Church of God of Prophecy
Pentecostal Holiness Church
Fire-Baptized Holiness Church
Pentecostal Free-Will Baptist Church
The Assemblies of God
The United Pentecostal Church

Source
http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/char/more/pente.htm

Of course, the United Pentecostal Church denies the Trinity but they came originally from the Azusa Street revival.

 

[donnA]

contemporary for the yuppies

I'm not a yuppie.

blended for those who dont' know what they are.

I know what I am.

 

[donnA]

From Marcia's link,,

Sanctification

The Pentecostal movement emerged from the Wesleyan/Holiness movement of the 1800s. John Wesley had taught that through an instantaneous experience, some time after conversion, a believer could become "entirely sanctified," or reach a state of "Christian perfection." By this Wesley did not mean that a Christian would never make a mistake, but that he could cease from sin in this life. Seizing upon this understanding of sanctification, Pentecostals have gone on to call it the "baptism of the Holy Spirit," which is evidenced by the experience of speaking in tongues.

In 1910, a Pentecostal minister by the name of William H. Durham challenged this teaching, proposing a gradual process of sanctification in which the sanctifying work of Christ was "appropriated" over one’s life. Today Pentecostals have lined up behind both positions.

snip


Practices

Pentecostals are defined more by what they do than by what they believe (of course their practices spring from their beliefs). Pentecostals believe in exorcism, speaking in tongues, faith healing, and a few (about 2,500) in snake handling, and in general, they seek supernatural experiences.

Women Preachers

Pentecostalism, from day one, has not shied away from welcoming women preachers and leaders in churches and denominations. The Church of God (Cleveland, Tenn.) began ordaining women in 1909, and by 1913 twelve percent of its ministers were women. The Assemblies of God first ordained women in 1914, and at one point, a quarter of their ministers were women. Some of the best known have been Aimee Semple McPherson (1890-1944), Maria Beulah Woodworth-Ettor (1844-1924), and Kathryn Kuhlman.

 

[ShotGunWillie]

Practices

Pentecostals are defined more by what they do than by what they believe (of course their practices spring from their beliefs). Pentecostals believe in exorcism, speaking in tongues, faith healing, and a few (about 2,500) in snake handling, and in general, they seek supernatural experiences.

Women Preachers

Pentecostalism, from day one, has not shied away from welcoming women preachers and leaders in churches and denominations. The Church of God (Cleveland, Tenn.) began ordaining women in 1909, and by 1913 twelve percent of its ministers were women. The Assemblies of God first ordained women in 1914, and at one point, a quarter of their ministers were women. Some of the best known have been Aimee Semple McPherson (1890-1944), Maria Beulah Woodworth-Ettor (1844-1924), and Kathryn Kuhlman.

So I am to assume by this post, that all Pentecostals believe and do these things?

This is absurd at best....

 

[Spinach]

If raising one's hands in praise is Pentacostalism, then I suppose I'm a Bapticostal.

Raising my hands doesn't make me any more Charismatic than praying on my face makes me a Muslim.

The best services I've ever been in was when the Spirit was so thick in the room, you just couldn't move. Also, one time, one of our shy little missionary girls (12 years old) got saved---and during the special singing, no less---and started shouting, "I love you, Jesus!" and "Thank you, Jesus!". It was a wonderful time in the Lord.

I've only been in a Southern Baptist church a handful of times. The first time was as a child. My Dad said "Amen" and everyone turned around to shush him. My Great-Grandma wanted to crawl under her pew.

 

[Tom Butler]

I'm not a yuppie.

I know what I am.

I should have remembered that all generalizations are lies, including this one.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Spinach,

"If raising one's hands in praise is Pentacostalism, then I suppose I'm a Bapticostal.

Raising my hands doesn't make me any more Charismatic than praying on my face makes me a Muslim.

The best services I've ever been in was when the Spirit was so thick in the room, you just couldn't move. Also, one time, one of our shy little missionary girls (12 years old) got saved---and during the special singing, no less---and started shouting, "I love you, Jesus!" and "Thank you, Jesus!". It was a wonderful time in the Lord.

I've only been in a Southern Baptist church a handful of times. The first time was as a child. My Dad said "Amen" and everyone turned around to shush him. My Great-Grandma wanted to crawl under her pew."

Great post.

I can relate personally to many of your experiences in this post.


:godisgood:

 

[Marcia]

So I am to assume by this post, that all Pentecostals believe and do these things?
....

Examine the statements of faith of Pentecostal churches and you'll find they believe in the 2nd infilling of the Holy Spirit and often that an initial speaking in tongues is a sign of being saved.

Also, it is pretty fair to say all Pentecostals believe that the sign gifts are in operation.

I do believe they are brothers and sisters in Christ and I will not divide over these issues. However, I cannot agree with many of their views, the these views are important enough to me that I could not belong to a church that accepts or practices them.

 

[Alive in Christ]

"Pentecostalism, from day one, has not shied away from welcoming women preachers and leaders in churches and denominations."

Good for them.

"The Church of God (Cleveland, Tenn.) began ordaining women in 1909, and by 1913 twelve percent of its ministers were women. The Assemblies of God first ordained women in 1914, and at one point, a quarter of their ministers were women."

Glory to God.

Along with more emotion in meetings, and allowing Gods "sign gifts" to be in operation, that is another issue where we Baptists could learn something from our Pentecostal brothers and sisters.



(Now if the Pentecostals would just get with the program regarding eternal security!) :thumbs:


:godisgood: