Amen! :thumbs:
We already had a Calvinist here who preached that unless you believe in TULIP you do not believe the Gospel. That's how far human reasoning can take a person off base.
Smashing the "T" out of TULIP
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by steaver, Apr 19, 2012.
Page 6 of 8
-
-
I thought so, at least that is what I always gathered from conversing with them.
"If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Then we have John 4:10, which is the most direct doctrine on how one receives the free Gift of God through asking and the giving of the Holy Spirit!
"Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God," (what is the gift of God? No mystery, That would be salvation/eternal life/Holy Spirit, Eph2:8-9,Rom6:23,John4:10).
"...and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink;..." (this "who it is" would be the Saviour, Jesus Christ, the One who saves)
".... thou wouldest have asked of him" (Jesus),...." (we see here again that one asks Jesus for the gift of the Holy Spirit)
".... and he (Jesus) would have given thee living water." (Who is the Living Water? This would be the Holy Spirit, John7:38-39, which is also the free gift of Rom6:23&Eph2:8-9, which is salvation/eternal life).
When I began studying scripture 16 years ago, this is one of the first doctrines I studied because I wanted to know what it meant to be born-again and how one became born-again. Jesus made it crystal clear when He spoke with the woman at the well. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
repeat of the same page
-
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Ps 39:5 Behold, thou hast made my days as an handbreadth; and mine age is as nothing before thee: verily every man at his best state is altogether vanity. Selah.
1. David is speaking of the man without God.
2. This is a universal statement "every" man.
3. This has reference to "man" generic
4. This has application to man's "best" state
5. This has refernce to his TOTAL condition "altogether" vanity.
My question is what state do you believe is man's "best" state?
a. infant state
b. youth state
c. mature state
d. Old age state
Second, How is he "altogether" vanity at this state? -
-
Are you trying to use this passage as proof of "total depravity" ? I don't see it. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Total depravity is so clearly taught in scriptures that its nay sayers must intentionally choose not to see it or must intentionally look for ways to escape it. There is no point in carrying on a debate with someone who chooses to ignore plainly stated language all through the scriptures from cover to cover. -
I have no issue with the "every man" nor man's "best state". The issue is you are not seeing that it is the man's "vanity" that is the focus. Look up the definition for "vanity".....
here is is......" the excessive pride in or admiration of one's own appearance or achievements" -
What about all of the BACs who can ONLY say, "I believe Jesus is the Son of God"?
Unbelievable, but true!
I.E. That He is Son of God is obviously stated in the NT, but that He is God is not obviously stated.
. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I do not believe you have one objective bone in your body. You are not interested in truth but in espousing your particlar bias. If you were interested in truth you would examine the hebrew term being used and how it is translated in the Old Testament. It refers to a passing "breath" or "vapour" and conveys the idea of worthliness in comparison to things of value. It is the term used characteristically by David's son in Ecclesiates. He is not talking about a characteristic of man (pride) but is using it to characterize the very person of every man. -
-
What if it was called "total helplessness" or "total inability" or "total enslavement of the will" instead of Total Depravity?
There is certainly enough bible verses to demonstrate that unbelievers are helpless, unable to do anything good (we can't even say "Jesus is Lord" without the Holy Spirit enabling us), and that until we were freed by Christ, we were slaves to sin.
If it wasn't called "Total Depravity" but went by a "nicer" name would it be easier to accept?
This teaching was so essential to my conversion: Being helpless, defenseless against the just wrath of a holy God, and incapable even of confessing Him as Lord without His help (1 Corinthians 12:3)!
So does the new birth precede conversion? It seems like it would have to, since the new birth is from Above, not from within.
A new believer exploring her faith,
Penny -
If new birth precedes faith, one has passed from death to life apart from Christ. You will not find that anywhere in Scripture. Christ IS The Life, and we find life only through Him. -
Since "the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually appraised (1st Corinthians 2:14)," how can such a person accept and embrace "the foolisness of preaching" unless the Spirit does a miracle first?
Is verse 12 a fair summary of chapter 2? He says,
My parents have heard the gospel from me many times, but it's a fairy tale to them, a gross injustice that a good man was executed, and a fantasy that He rose from the dead. They hate religion, blaming it for war and poverty and everything else that is wrong with the world. Only God can open their eyes to see what you and I see.
I have alot of trouble believing that a person like my mom or dad can "believe in magic" without some supernatural intervention. Otherwise why pray to God for their salvation? I should be praying to them instead of to God, since God "can't" do anything until they take the impossible first step of believing in "the foolishness of the gospel." If that's true, it makes me really sad. Not just for my parents, but for God being helpless, not getting His way unless a hardened God-hater like my dad "enables" God to save him by believing in magic. Not likely.
a humble Penny -
-
It seems you have determined that it is impossible for a person to choose Jesus Christ apart from God first regenerating their spirit. You will not find this doctrine within the scriptures themselves, this is a "theory" if you will that is forced because of the Calvinist strict adherence to the T of TULIP.
We can see in the scriptures and in observation of human beings that they are not "Totally" depraved. All people are depraved, born sinners, yet are made in the image of God and are very capable of doing non-depraved deeds. No one is always sinning 24/7 of their lives, even though all sin on a daily basis, even the born of God.
Apart from the drawing of the Holy Spirit no one can call upon Jesus Christ for salvation, this makes God first in all things. But the scripture is clear that many are called, but not all are chosen. The chosen ones are the Elect, those whom God knows will say yes to His open invitation to believe and call for that Spirit of rebirth, chosen in Christ, from the foundation of the world. -
What about my first question: Would it be easier if it was called "Total Helplessness" or "Total Inability" instead of Total Depravity?"
My church is definitely NOT Calvinist, by the way, and I'm not sure I even know what Calvinism is - only that my pastors and teachers have warned me to stay away from Calvinists.
My questions are my own, and arise out of concern for my unsaved parents. If my reasoning is wrong, then please tell me something that will at least give me some hope for my parents' salvation. Because nothing shy of a miracle will make them accept "the foolishness" that their middle-school daughter came home spouting one day last summer.
a pensive, perplexed, penitent Penny -
The Parable of the Persistent Widow
Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. 2 He said: “In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared what people thought. 3 And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him with the plea, ‘Grant me justice against my adversary.’
4 “For some time he refused. But finally he said to himself, ‘Even though I don’t fear God or care what people think, 5 yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will see that she gets justice, so that she won’t eventually come and attack me!’”
6 And the Lord said, “Listen to what the unjust judge says. 7 And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off?8 I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?” -
God is patient and I continue to pray for His patients with my family, but I also know God can shut the door and harden forever a heart that has continually rejected His wooing. I always pray this will not happen and trust God will be longsuffering, but then there is death, when that person's open door will be closed and sealed forever. If you are faithful in prayer for your parents, and display the love of Christ in you towards them, you have done your part, and trust God will be fair and just to give them every opportunity for salvation. -
Your parents have been hardening their hearts towards the things of God. Pray God will break down their walls and let them see what you have seen in Jesus, and then hope they will make that wonderful decision to pray themselves and call upon the name of Jesus that they may be given a new heart and become that child of God. (Romans 10)
Page 6 of 8