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An honest question....how do you define election? How do you see God bringing in the elect from all over the world?

Okay, so that should have been stated "An honest questions"....:laugh: :tongue3:

 

In a now closed thread from May GreekTim posted this, if you didn't watch it then watch it now.

While we are responsible as parents for guidance, and responsible to share the gospel with others in our family, the bottom line is that each of us are individually responsible before God. As deep as the bond of love may run in family/friend situations, and as much as we desire to see others we know saved, what does the scripture say about what we should desire most?

Matthew 10:32-37

32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.

34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn


“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—

36
a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[c]

37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.

 

SW, I believe you are genuinely trying to understand the Cal viewpoint on these things. Here is a good sermon by Spurgeon.

http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm

One quote in particular that helped me better understand election is:

As Willis (C1) and Icon have both pointed out, its all about our view of the fall, which includes an honest assessment of ourselves before a Holy and righteous God, everything hinges on that.

 

you're a rebellious soul. short answer to this.
may God grant you repentance.

 

steaver


I rejoice in God's eternal purpose ...knowing that the God of all the earth will do right......Do you not believe God will do right Steaver?

You say this has nothing to do with this postThis is why you are not understanding what you should from scripture. We have to start with who God is. You are starting with misguided emotions that are contrary right from the start.

You are suggesting quite clearly that Gen 18:25 is not true. You are suggesting that for God to punish anyone in hell is not right when the testimony of scripture is...that it is Holy and Just.

I trust the God of the bible Steaver. This is one of those vague questions in that...on one hand...we all deserve Hell. On the other hand judgement is not random. God's eternal plan is revealed to the church.He has died a covenant death for those elected. This is reality and actual...not potential.
We did not write these verses but we believe them...

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Further more...if God sending us to hell was what was the right thing to do...he would...for His own glory. I am okay with that.Who am I to demand anything of God? I have asked Him to have mercy upon me and forgive me. I used to rebel against God, now I believe as he has enabled me to.

Yes.....the elect...that is correct that is what 2tim 1:9 is speaking about.

Here is another Steaver...notice how most of these verses on election and predestination are right in the beginning of the letters 2tim1 titus 1 eph 1 that is because Paul wanted to depress us and bring great sorrow over us? or because this view of God is a great comfort and source of joy.
You said to Reformed that he wanted to focus on himself...but you miss that we rejoice and have joy in the truth of gen 18:25...and we trust God more than we trust men...even our own families.

1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;


Then I posted;
Perhaps if you do not have confidence In the promises offered to the sheep.

You said God promised eternal life before the foundation of the world...the way you worded it suggests again a vague promise to no one in particular.Con 1 has pointed out quite correctly this is a wrong view of the fall.
Because of the fall God had already marked out a people for Himself or none would be saved.
This is what scripture teaches as written. When you do not believe it as written what is left are these dark scenerios that you and others suggest.

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There is no freewill...so again you are trying to invent another whole biblical story. You can wrestle with that...I am not following fables and human philosophy.

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God not only makes promises but ordains the means for those promises to come to fruition. there is a promise of life to those who are found in the last Adam...and a promise of certain death to all who remain dead in the first Adam.

No..as it does not exist; from the 1689;

3. God's Decree


1.God has decreed in Himself from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things which shall ever come to pass.
- Yet in such a way that God is neither the author of sin nor does He have fellowship with any in the committing of sins, nor is violence offered to the will of the creature , nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

- In all this God's wisdom is displayed, disposing all things, and also His power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.



2. Although God knows everything which may or can come to pass under all imaginable conditions, yet He has not decreed anything because He foresaw it in the future, or because it would come to pass under certain conditions.
3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of His glorious grace. Others are left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of His glorious justice.


4. Those angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and the number of them is so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.

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This is a false understanding of foreknowledge

No Christian is happy that people are on their way to hell and many will go their.Paul who was a Calvinist wrote this;

14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

and then;
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Even though you appeal that we not call our postings evil...what can I call this? You describe a god who tortures people, rather than the biblical God who declares he takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, or jesus weeping over Jerusalem....that is evil posting to me and I will say so.

Your sorrow is over the caricature that you construct, not over us.

You might not like my "debate style"...I am not looking for style points{perhaps you have noticed this}....I am looking to be faithful to scripture for Kingdom purposes and growth.

this is apparent.

God has a Holy purpose in all he does.

Sorry Steaver...no deal. if you believe what I post is evil, make your case against my posting scripturally. I will do the same.When I can agree I will, and when I need to react I will.

Notice.....I did not say, you personally were evil or that you were defective in some way did I? I have to say that the ideas you express seem profane to me, but if you are at all serious I am trying to address your concerns as you addressed cals, looking for a cal response...you are getting a wide range of responses from cal's and non cals.

 

This is true. This isn't necessarily a problem--conceptualizing the process of salvation differently.

The big problem, the inflammatory problem, comes when persons misstate their opponent's position (Strawman) and will not be teachable or correctable about it.

Can this thread help, by way of explanation, to tear down the Strawmen? Yes, it can. Will it? That's the question....

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

Before He made this globe, before He created the first angel, when only there was the Triune God, He had us in mind....all mankind. In His plan, He chose to use Jesus to redeem us. He didn't have to choose this, but He did. Once He did, He entered in an everlasting covenant with His Son. We, who He chose from before the foundation of the world, were in that everlasting covenant, as well.

 

Shall not God always do right? Does He actually owe us anything? Remember, we all deserved hell, being sinners. He didn't owe us one thing. Yet, He gave the very best He had to offer when He sent His Son to die for us. The guiltless for the guilty. If it makes you sad that God passes by those who actually deserve hell, then that's your choice. I don't like to see people die lost, either, but myriads have and will.

:thumbsup: That's supported by scripture.

That's what fallen mankind always does...reject the only way of salvation. That's free will in a nutshell....people freely choose to reject Him. Free will is the only thing that keeps sinners from coming to Him. Unless God exchanges their stony heart with a fleshly heart, they'll die eternally tormented....

 

It was because of God's foreknowledge that he planned before the foundation of the world to redeem man, because he foreknew man would sin. He did not plan this sin, nor desire it, yet he knew men would choose to sin against him.

And God did choose persons from the beginning through belief in the truth (2 The 2:13). But how could those persons believe before they existed? They couldn't, but again, God in his foreknowledge could see who would believe in time, and chose these persons. This is why the scriptures say we are elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.

You will say, but this speaks of a personal, intimate relationship, and you would be correct, but God knows no person in a personal and intimate way until that persons trusts Christ.

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Note that only "now" do we know God, but more importantly, note that only "now" are we "known of God". God does not know us in this personal and intimate relationship until we actually trust Jesus in time.

So how could God foreknow us in a personal relationship before the foundation of the world?

Again, the answer is foreknowledge. Before the foundation of the world God the Father could foresee those persons who would believe on Jesus and be "in him" in time (Rom 16:7).

God does not pass over people, God desires that all men be saved. But God gives all men free will, he does not force anyone to love him or choose him. We can pray to God to be patient with our loved ones who are not saved, and not to "give them over" to a reprobate mind as described in Romans 1. God is patient, but even God has a point where he gives up on a man. In these instances we can pray and ask God to be even more forgiving and patient, and to cause those things that might bring our loved one to repentance, though they must make that decision themselves.

In Calvinism, prayer for your loved ones is vain and meaningless, it will not change a thing God has already decreed. If God has chosen to pass by your children, your tears will not affect him, he will cast them into hell for his pleasure and glory.