Permit me to add to the list of Calvinists of the past in no order:
John Gill
John Brine
John Bunyan
John Lightfoot
John Ryland Sr.
John Ryland Jr.
John Flavel
John Cotton
John Foxe
John Preston
John Hus(s)
John Wycliffe
John Knox
John Newton
And,last,but certainly not least,my namesake :John Rippon.
Some arguments against Arminianism
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by RLBosley, May 25, 2014.
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2) Shows the mercy of God and is perfectly biblical.
3) Shows absolutely no justice and is most certainly not biblical. -
Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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We have showed you a myriad of times that regeneration MUST precede conversion, you just don't accept the answers given. A skewed view of the fall gives a skewed view of your, or mine, our theological belief system. -
Now, if you want to continue to redefine this word, there is nothing I can do to stop you, but regeneration happens AFTER you believe. Until you believe you are dead in trespasses and sins and cannot possibly be alive again.
Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
I'm not going to bother with you anymore Willis. I will talk to others, but you have sold yourself over to error. Believe whatever you want. -
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Be very careful about using the terminology you have.
Your frustration level is at a low tolerance there winman. I bet you'd feel a whole lot better if he was nasty to you. He isn't and yet you get bent out of shape. -
You need to take a good look in the mirror hypocrite. -
What bothers me is that he knows different. He used to think. He used to be against Calvinism, and he knew why. He quoted scripture. Here is an example.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1975614&postcount=105
Here is another example;
Willis used to know that a person is dead in sins until they believe, Willis used to repeatedly say it was error to believe regeneration precedes faith. And he knew why, he could give you the scriptures to back it up.
Anybody can ask things like, "Can a corpse believe?" That's what I mean by a Calvinist cliche. It is meaningless, doesn't prove anything, and has no support in scripture.
That's not debating. If you don't have a real argument, keep your yap shut. We already got a bunch of mindless parrots here. -
Brother, show me where I parrot others? I haven't used the LBCF, WCF, the Blackrock Address, nor have I posted other theologians quotes in my posts, to the best of my knowledge. I stick with the scriptures.
But I would be lying if I said I was shocked you'd turn nasty on me. Deep down inside, I knew you would.
Off to the killfire you go..... -
I can't believe I forgot Bunyan!
Good list. I wonder what it is about the name John? -
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Why do you continually go to passage that are not speaking of salvation, wrest them from their context and try to use them to support your view (John 1 regarding Nathaniel for example)?
Why not go to the passages that actually deal with salvation itself and use those to build your doctrine?
Passages like this:
[Jhn 6:36-37, 39, 44-45, 65 NASB] "But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. ... "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. ... "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. ... 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
Or this:
[Jhn 8:43, 47 NASB] 43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. ... 47 "He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."
Or this:
[Act 13:47-48 NASB] 47 "For so the Lord has commanded us, 'I HAVE PLACED YOU AS A LIGHT FOR THE GENTILES, THAT YOU MAY BRING SALVATION TO THE END OF THE EARTH.'" 48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
Or:
[Rom 8:28-30 NASB] 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
I could continue on, but I will stop there.
I've already explained what foreknowledge is, you either reject it (such as in this thread) or apparently can't understand it (such as in the Calvinism thread). Of course God knows who believes and who doesn't believe from the beginning. But what is the basis or source of this knowledge God has? Is he taking in knowledge about what free creatures will do in the future? Or is it knowledge based on knowing the end result of his sovereign will?
What is the next verse?
[Jhn 6:65 NASB] 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
Yes Jesus knew who would believe and who wouldn't. Why? Because he knew who had been granted belief by the Father!
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Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Gen 37:4 And when his brethren saw that their father loved him more than all his brethren, they hated him, and could not speak peaceably unto him.
Is scripture teaching Total Inability here? NO. Joseph's brothers could have spoken peacefully to him if they had not been so jealous and obstinate. Years later they are completely reconciled to Joseph and quite easily speak kindly to him.
This is how cultists interpret the Bible, they go through the scriptures searching for a word like "cannot" to try to prove what they have already determined to believe, Total Inability. And that is exactly what you did here. John 8 is not saying men cannot repent and listen to Jesus, only they would not.
Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Is this verse speaking about some personal and intimate relationship? NOPE, it is saying Jesus was delivered by God's foreknowledge. Jesus knew the soldiers would come for him in the garden, and he allowed himself to be taken. This is speaking of knowing EVENTS before they happened.
So, you can insist all day long on your Calvinist redefinition of the word foreknowledge, and you will be in error all day long.
Here you are directly being shown God has foreknowledge of faith, but you refuse to see it. Your loss.
You aren't interested in learning, you will parrot the same old tired proof texts every other Calvinist parrots. And you misinterpret them the same way as you demonstrated with Acts 13:48. You have been conditioned by false doctrine to completely misinterpret what that verse is saying, it is not saying people are ordained or appointed to believe.
If people are ordained to believe, then those who are not ordained to believe are ordained to unbelief, which is a sin. This would make God the author of sin. -
No one can be spiritually alive until their sins are forgiven, and no one's sins are forgiven until they believe on Jesus. Therefore it is absolutely logically impossible to be regenerated before faith. Until you believe you are dead in sins and you will die in those sins unless you believe.
Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Your view is logically impossible, it cannot be correct. If you had common sense and logic you would KNOW this is absolute truth. -
Where did this faith capacity come from? Do all sinners have this ability inherit within them?
Were Adam and Eve born changed into sinners by the fall, and did cain get that sin nature from them, as he murdered abel?
Where did THAT desire to kill come from? not from God!
And the lord already has written down ALL of those names of the redeemed from eternity past, so why does he need to "see their faith?" -
Everyone reading, I would like you to behold the flailing Arminian. When rational debate and exegesis fails, start throwing random insults and strawmen out hoping something sticks.
Does the text say anything about these people learning from the written word? No. The teaching here is BY God not about God. As I showed you before, this goes back to OT prophesies regarding the nature of the New Covenant; that God would work in the hearts of his people and change them so that they all, all in the covenant, would know him. The drawing in John 6 is by the Father and it cannot fail to bring about salvation and is analogous to being taught by the Father.
[Jhn 8:43, 47 NASB] 43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. ... 47 "He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."
They CANNOT hear the words of Jesus. Obviously the physically hear, but still reject him (Which is also contrary to your false interpretation of John 6), demonstrating this hearing is a spiritual perception of the truth spoken by Christ. He says that they do not hear because they are not of God. So what then logically must be true to enable hearing? Being "of God!" One must be "of God" or belong to God as the NIV renders it, in order to be able to hear Christ and be saved! This would have been particularly damning to these Jews since, as Jews, they viewed themselves as being God's special people. Clearly just having the written word (as they did) was not enough for them to be "of God."
I know you don't like this, but this is the truth and it is plainly obvious.
That might have actually had some truth if I was raised in Calvinism. Instead I was raised in your system, but over the past couple years have seen the total inability of the system to withstand scriptural scrutiny.
I never said that the verse said they were appointed to believe. Again, you seem to either willfully ignore what is being said or you cannot understand.
"and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."
As many as were appointed. This is a precise number of people who had already been appointed to eternal life. Not simply some ethereal concept that whoever believes will be appointed to eternal life, which isn't really appointing anyway. But specific individuals in this crowd had been already appointed to eternal life. The result? Belief. They had, in eternity past, been appointed, they heard the word of Christ proclaimed and then believed.
Also, I love that when you keep seeing the same answers from people, you believe the only possibility is that we are "parroting" others or each other. But when you keep bringing of the same arguments of other Arminians we are supposed to believe you are just providing good sound exegesis. :laugh:
Seriously?? Think!
Snarky references to magical zapping with faith and "superstition" noted.
For everyone's benefit, the passage in question:
[Jhn 6:64-65 NASB] 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
It is clear that believing and coming to Jesus are analogous. What is the condition coming to the Son? Having the ability to come/believe granted by the Father.
I parrot Calvinists. That's all I do.
Apparently that's all any Calvinist knows how to do. :rolleyes:
You however are the paragon of sincerity and patience. You have the only good consistent exegesis nor do you ever parrot anyone!
If only we could all be like Winman right?
Tell me, what church to you oversee? What books have you written? Someone as perfect as you and with such a gifting from God must clearly be an authoritative voice in the Christian Church, right? -
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