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Featured Some Objections to AD70 Rapture Answered

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by asterisktom, Oct 3, 2021.

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  1. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    1. How come no one witnessed all these Christians being raptured? I think the best answer is that it happened truly as Jesus forewarned, like a thief in the night. The same time that that the priests were ministering in the Temple and heard the voice saying “Let us depart from here”.

    In an earlier post I had gone into more detail on this, including the quote from Josephus on this event. IMO, I think the “depart from here” was a reference to those just then leaving Hades, followed a split second (or less!) by those on Earth.

    The fact that this was at night and that many Christians were being hauled away, never to be seen again, just like Paul had been doing three decades earlier, help to make this more under the radar.

    2. Why did no one write about this supposed removal of all Christians from the Earth? And why did those contemporary Christians like Clement and the writer of the Didache not mention it? I would reply first of all that there was not a lot of writing going on then. Or the writings were not found. Many of the writings supposedly from the subsequent two or three decades are better dated prior to AD70.

    The Didache and Clements letter to the Romans come to mind here. Both of them refer to Temple rites still ongoing. Both are often erroneously dated after AD70. For that matter Johns Revelation is also erroneously dated. He thus, consequently, made no mention of the destruction of the Temple, but rather described it and the rites as still existing.


    3. What about the persecutions still happening after AD70 at Pella and elsewhere? I would say that if there are no longer Christians on the Earth what happens then it is not persecution but payback. The ones still left behind are those who remained unconvinced by the Gospel. However outwardly righteous they may have been they were strangers to the righteousness of God.

    The detailed account of Josephus of what happened to the Jews in Pella, Masada, Antioch, and other cities throughout the Empire show God’ s retribution on those who obstinately refused His midnight call for repentance.


    4. If the Christians were all raptured from the Earth how did Christianity start again? Although the Christians were gone, their writings were not. And if God, as Jesus said, could make “sons of Abraham” from stones surely He could – and I believe He did – grow new saints out of the writings left behind by the raptured older saints.
     
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  2. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, it didn't happen then and has not happened yet.
     
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  3. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Another question: Why? I mean, there is no theological purpose for an AD 70 rapture. So Christians disappear, and other people get saved and Christianity continues to grow, making an AD 70 rapture a mere blip, if that, in the history of Christianity (a subject I teach) which no one noticed. (I dare anyone to find the slightest hint of it in Eusebius.)
     
    #3 John of Japan, Oct 7, 2021
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  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The eschatologIes which divide up the second appearing of Christ, the first resurrection are a major division in the body of Christ. As is the denial of the Revelation of it's actual Millennium. Others a denial of the rapture. [And for some even a denial of the faith.] The Biblical truths are simple, the eschatological errors make it complicated. The eschatological errors become their own presuppostions which closes the minds to the simple truths.

    We do have a common ground in the texts upon which eschatology is based. We need to agree on what the texts say.
     
  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The simplest truths are the ones that are taught only once.
     
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    When Second Coming and the rapture hit, then history as we know it ceases, and his Kingdom ushered in and Jesus will be here on the earth in physical form!
     
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  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Didn't happen yet. Why think it did when it didn't?
     
    #7 37818, Oct 7, 2021
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  8. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    So, you value the testimony of a fallible human who arrives two centuries after the event over the infallible words of our Lord? Patristics has its place, but it should be very, very subordinate to the Bible.

    "no theological purpose for an AD 70 rapture"? It honors the many clear statements of Christ to His hearers that some of them would live to experience His return. It answers the foolish comments on Matthew 24:34 like those of CS. Lewis and Albert Schweitzer, to name just two, who see in Christs not coming in the first century as "“certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible” (Lewis) and "deeply mistaken" (Schweitzer).

    Maybe this astounding event seems to you "a mere blip" because you have discounted audience relevance - to whom were these verses first and primarily addressed? And also maybe because you were not aware that the Christians at the time were still suffering the horrific Neronic persecution.
     
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  9. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Because the promises of Christ demand this interpretation.
     
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  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    That claim does not make that claim for that interpertation so. In simple steps, if you can, explain step by step that interpretation.
     
  11. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Let me get this straight. First of all, just because I disagree with your preterist interpretation of Christ's teaching, then I am denying Christ's words? That is a totally false accusation.

    Secondly, you think I am putting Eusebius above the Bible? Really? That is a terrible and false accusation. But hey, if millions of Christians had disappeared, surely not just Eusebius, but many, many of the church fathers would have noticed. Yet not one--NOT ONE--wrote about such an event.

    Thirdly, "generation" in Matthew 24:34 is the Greek γενεά, meaning according to Gingrich's Shorter Lexicon, "clan, race, kind," as the primary (first) definition. And last I looked, the Jewish race was still around.

    Concerning your statement that such an imaginary rapture fulfills "many clear statements of Christ to His hearers that some of them would live to experience His return"--what many statements would those be? You mean the time He prophesied His Transfiguration just before it happened in the very next verse (Matthew 16:28-17:1)?

    And the persecution by Nero? It was horrible but minor compared to later persecutions, and even compared to many waves of persecution today: the USSR, North Korea, China, Muslim nations, etc., etc.

    P.S. Now is your time to tell me I depend on the Greek too much like you once did, even though it is the actual language of the NT. :p
     
    #11 John of Japan, Oct 7, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2021
  12. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    What makes you think IT DID happen? No evidence.
     
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  13. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    A short response for now. Do not put words in my mouth. No one said "denying". In your post above you cited Eusebius as some kind of proof of your point, no allusion to Scripture, It was not an accusation. It was an observation.
     
  14. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Okay, a very harsh observation, then. You accused me, saying: "you value the testimony of a fallible human who arrives two centuries after the event over the infallible words of our Lord?" You know that is not true.
     
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  15. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Okay, skipping over all of that...

    "But hey, if millions of Christians had disappeared, surely not just Eusebius, but many, many of the church fathers would have noticed. Yet not one--NOT ONE--wrote about such an event."

    When it happened there were no church fathers to notice. If they were true fathers in the faith, so to speak, they would have been all raptured. And as to why others would have either not noticed or misconstrued the event, I already wrote above.

    I see that you still dig up that ancient comment of mine from maybe 10, 15 years ago. And you probably do not recall the context when I wrote that. But, since you mentioned it, yes, it is possible to depend too much on the Greek. Or on church fathers, like Eusebius.
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The Hebrew and Greek Texts have the final say, have primacy over any english translation!
     
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  17. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Okay, so a guy gets saved in AD 71, reads Acts and wonders what happened to all the Christians in it. So he asks around and finds a bunch of lost family members and friends who say, "Yeah, they all just disappeared." And widening his research, he learns that the same thing happened all over the Roman Empire.

    Yet according to you, no historical reference would be left of such a stupendous Christian event. Frankly, that's a ridiculous opinion. You are driven to it by your insistence on full preterism, which has become your preunderstanding of all of the NT.

    Well, great, you've updated it so I don't have to quote you from years ago, I have a recent quote. Thanks! :D
     
  18. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    You don't know much about church history do you?
     
  19. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    What about the Apostle John? Why was he not taken in 70AD?
     
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  20. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Not much. The 8 volumes of Church History by Schaff. Also Eusebius and Socrates, Bede, Gibbons (a mixed bag there) and many more. Not to mention the texts I studied when I got my Bible degree years ago.

    How about you?
    What was your point?
     
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