And airplanes falling out of the sky. And cars without drivers. And teachers leaving classrooms. And . and. and.!!!!!
Southern Baptists and Dispensationalism
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by OldRegular, Dec 4, 2008.
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You can do better than this, Jim. -
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Could someone list the promises made to Israel? Chapter and verse please. :)
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One of the worst implications of dispensationalism is that it states that the Church was left ignorant for 1800 years. One of the worst claims that dispensationalism makes is that the Church is guilty of robbing Israel of its promises. Very Sad!:tear:
Why don't you address the point made in the OP about the Church as defined by the Southern Baptist Convention? That refutes dispensationalism and you cannot deny it. -
As I told JD regarding his post on ecclesiology in dispensationalism. Don't hold your breath!:love2: -
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Jeremiah 31:31-40 31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." 35 Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The LORD of hosts is His name: 36 "If this fixed order departs From before Me," declares the LORD, "Then the offspring of Israel also will cease From being a nation before Me forever." 37 Thus says the LORD, "If the heavens above can be measured And the foundations of the earth searched out below, Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel For all that they have done," declares the LORD. 38 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when the city will be rebuilt for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 "The measuring line will go out farther straight ahead to the hill Gareb; then it will turn to Goah. 40 "And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD; it will not be plucked up or overthrown anymore forever."
Micah 2:12-13 "I will surely assemble all of you, Jacob, I will surely gather the remnant of Israel. I will put them together like sheep in the fold; Like a flock in the midst of its pasture They will be noisy with men. 13 "The breaker goes up before them; They break out, pass through the gate and go out by it. So their king goes on before them, And the LORD at their head."
Zechariah 12:8-10 "In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the one who is feeble among them in that day will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the LORD before them. 9 "And in that day I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.
Amos 9:14-15 "Also I will restore the captivity of My people Israel, And they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them; They will also plant vineyards and drink their wine, And make gardens and eat their fruit. 15 "I will also plant them on their land, And they will not again be rooted out from their land Which I have given them," Says the LORD your God.
I could go on and on, but that will suffice for starters. -
Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Israel seems to play a pretty big role in Revelation. Is that the legitimate Israel, or an illegitimate one?
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I have a copy of the Baptist Faith and Message (1963?) and there is no mention of the rapture or millenium in it.
This is what is says regarding "last things".
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Jeremiah 31:31-40 31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." 35 Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The LORD of hosts is His name: 36 "If this fixed order departs From before Me," declares the LORD, "Then the offspring of Israel also will cease From being a nation before Me forever." 37 Thus says the LORD, "If the heavens above can be measured And the foundations of the earth searched out below, Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel For all that they have done," declares the LORD. 38 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when the city will be rebuilt for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 "The measuring line will go out farther straight ahead to the hill Gareb; then it will turn to Goah. 40 "And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD; it will not be plucked up or overthrown anymore forever."
Micah 2:12-13 "I will surely assemble all of you, Jacob, I will surely gather the remnant of Israel. I will put them together like sheep in the fold; Like a flock in the midst of its pasture They will be noisy with men. 13 "The breaker goes up before them; They break out, pass through the gate and go out by it. So their king goes on before them, And the LORD at their head."
Zechariah 12:8-10 "In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the one who is feeble among them in that day will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the LORD before them. 9 "And in that day I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.
Amos 9:14-15 "Also I will restore the captivity of My people Israel, And they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them; They will also plant vineyards and drink their wine, And make gardens and eat their fruit. 15 "I will also plant them on their land, And they will not again be rooted out from their land Which I have given them," Says the LORD your God.
I could go on and on, but that will suffice for starters. -
I wouldn't break fellowship over it, though it would have some implications for fellowship in some areas. -
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My dear brother pastor Larry, you are prolly correct that I know more than I am saying. I have been all through the numerous debates over eschatology. I grew up in the Church of England with historic premill,,when I returned to London from Wales, I joined the Plymoth Brethren, the fathers of dispensationalism,,you kw the old boys, charts and all, I then went to the Baptist Union because I wanted to enter ministry. I was still historical premill,,mxes of dispensationalism. I came to Canada and was introduced to amill to which I rebelled, but later came to realize it whilst Lorraine Boetner was teaching post millennialism! Weird, what?
I think I know what most the schools teach, but I can't really get too worked up about that aspect of eschatology..the study of last things. A few of my churches were dispensational and I managed to live in peace with them...there was so much more to preach and besides they didn't even know when I crossed over to amillennial thought in a sermon. I decided then that these debates are meant for the clergy.
Yes, I am playing a bit. Sorry.
Cheers,
Jim -
Jim,
Thanks for your comments in your last post. I really don't get bent out of shape about it. I have some pretty solid views (as you might can tell). In the end, I am not all that concerned about what people believe, though I think it is important.
This debate is kind of like Calvinism to some degree. People trot out verses (like John5:28,29) as if the other side had never heard of it and will suddenly be stumped and convert. Truth is, we have interacted with all those verses and have tried to come to an honest understanding of them.
It gets a little heated, which doesn't bother me. It's just part of life. The good thing about being pre-trib is that I am the only one who change my position if I am wrong. -
Thanks guys. I don't think we should break fellowship over this subject either. I know the Lord is coming. I will spend probably the rest of my life trying to understand all the scriptures concerning it. Until then, I am but a lowly student. :tongue3:
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To add a few more to Pastor Larry's post about unfulfilled promises:
First Part... -
Since we know the early church, for the first 400+ years, was in the vast majority pre-mill or Chiliasism view (Christ's returning to rule an earthly Kingdom for 1000 years).
Here are some names of those of the pre-mil view from our early church fathers and a link to the information.
The first 9 are influential men for the first 300 years according to Chafer:
1. Andrew
2. Peter
3. Philip
4. Thomas
5. James
6. John
7. Matthew
8. Aristio
9. John the Presbyter
Peters states regarding the above: "These all lived between A.D. 1-100; John, it is supposed -- so Mosheim, etc. -- died about A.D. 100. (All these are cited by Papias, who, according to Irenaeus, was one of John's hearers, and intimate with Polycarp. John is also expressly mentioned by Justin. Now this reference to the apostles agrees with the facts that we have proven: (a) that the disciples of Jesus did hold the Jewish views of the Messianic reign in the first part of this century, and (b) that, instead of discarding them, they linked them with the Sec. Advent)."Click to expand...
10. Clement of Rome A.D. 40-100
11. Barnabas A.D 40-100
12 Hermas A.D 40-150
13 Ignatius A.D. 50-115
14 Polycarp A.D. 70-167
15. Papias A.D. 80-163
SECOND CENTURY:
1. Pothinus A.D. 87-177
2. Justin Martyr A.D. 100-168
3. Melito A.D. 100-170
4. Hegisippus A.D. 130-190
5. Tatian A.D. 130-190
6. Irenaeus A.D. 140-202
7. The Churches of Vienne and Lyons - a letter A.D. 177
8. Tertulian A.D. 150-220
9. Hippolytus A.D. 160-240
10 Apollinaris A.D. 150-200
THIRD CENTURY:
1. Cyprian A.D. 200-258
2. Commodian A.D. 200-270
3. Nepos A.D. 230-280
4. Coracion A.D. 230-280
5. Victorinus A.D. 240-303
6. Methodius A.D. 250-311
7. Lactantius A.D. 240-330
In the THIRD CENTURY there were only 4 who apposed this view:
1. Caius (or Gaius), wrote about A.D. 210
2, Clemens Alexandrinus, died A.D. 202, great influence on Origin
3. Origin A.D. 185-254
4. Dionysius A.D. 190-265
Here is Chafer also:
AS TO PREMILLENNIALISM BEING A NEW THEORY:
It is a common practice with some theologians to brand chiliasm (premillennialism) as a modern theory, not remembering that, in its restored form, even justification by faith is comparatively a modern truth. Both justification by faith and chiliasm are taught in the New Testament and were therefore the belief of the early church. These doctrines, like all other essential truths, went into obscurity during the dark Ages. The Reformers did not restore all features of doctrine and along with justification by faith they retained the Romish notion that the church is the kingdom, fulfilling the Davidic covenant, and appointed to conquer the world by bringing it under the authority of the church. (Chafer, Vol. 4, Eschatology, Introduction. pg. 257)Click to expand...
This would appear to indicate that this was the apostles own teaching since it was so prevellent a view since the inception of the Church.
It is of note what Chafer stated Here:
Chafer On The Allegorical Method Of Interpretation Of The Prophetic Scriptures:
"In sheer fantastical imagination this method surpasses Russellism, Eddyism, and Seventh Day Adventism, since the plain, grammatical meaning of language is abandoned, and simple terms are diverted in their course and end in anything the interpreter wishes" (Eschatology, Vol. 4 p. 281-282).Click to expand...
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