I'm curious...since God is all-knowing, why did he place the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden KNOWING FOR CERTAIN that they would disobey His command not to eat from it?
Sovereign Election
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Robert William, Feb 20, 2015.
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robustheologian Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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robustheologian Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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If you think Calvinists believe what you think they do on this issue, then you need to document. You need to back up your assertions. Please give citations. Thank you. -
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1) I say Calvinism is both irrational and unbiblical, not one or the other. So you start with a mischaracterization.
2) Scripture does not teach total spiritual inability of all fallen people at all times.a)Gen. 2:16-17 indicates Adam had a choice and was not compelled by Total Spiritual Inability.
b) John 6:44 says you must first be drawn before you can come to Jesus. It does not say fallen people cannot be drawn.
c) Romans 3:10-12 does not say "at all times." That is added by Calvinist interpretation. But the passage can be understood to be part of Paul's proof that all are under sin, because we are not righteous, when we sin, we do not understand the penalty when we sin, and we are not seeking God when we sin. Thus the quote proves that we all sin.
Now lets turn the tables, and you address my verses: Matthew 23:13 where fallen unregenerate men are "entering heaven" thus at that point in time seeking God, yet are blocked by false teachers. This demonstrates that some men have some ability to seek God without irresistible grace alteration. Thus they have limited spiritual ability, making total spiritual inability as affecting all fallen people at all times unbiblical. -
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Pay no attention to Mr. Rippon, I provided a published quote supporting my view. See post #38.
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You can love your friends, but love your own family more... -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Van.
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Is the words "at all times" todays phrase that pays...Dr Van Twaddle?
This was a classic....lol -
robustheologian Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
b) Fallen men are those that have not been drawn.
c) Total depravity does not teach that we sin all the time and doesn't need to for it to make sense. However, it should be noted that the Bible says anything that doesn't come from faith is sin (Rom. 14:23b).
As far as Matt. 23:13 goes, there is a lot of figurative language. The Pharisees can not hinder any elect person from being saved or lock the door to heaven. This just makes those destined to hell more culpable. -
robustheologian Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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I agree with that quote. But that quote does not = God causes people to have total spiritual inability. There was indeed a curse placed on mankind as a result of the Fall. Do you deny that?
In Romans 5:17 it says in part that "the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man." Do you agree?
In verse 19 it says that "the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners" --do you agree? -
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Mr Rippon continues to deny Calvinism. Anyone who pays attention to how he characterizes the statements of others is naive. I provided a quote, whereas he has provided no published source that denies the result of the fall was total spiritual inability according to Calvinism. None, zip, nada, and folks, note not one Calvinist has posted that the published view is correct. But even the WCF says this, ""Man, by his fall Into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation;" Yet another published source says the, "since the fall man rests under the curse of sin, that he is actuated by wrong principles, and that he is wholly unable to love God or to do anything meriting salvation.
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robustheologian Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
2. Figurative language exists in too many places to just ignore (i.e. symbolism, metaphor, anthropomorphic, etc.). To not understand when scripture uses figurative language is in a way not reading in the context of the whole Bible.
3. Romans 8:7-8, 1 Corinthians 2:14, and Isaiah 53:6 show that no one seeks God. How can one go after the world (Eph. 2:1-3) and God at the same time? -
However, Roman 3:10-11 does not say none seek after God at any time, which is the Calvinist addition to the text, changing its meaning.
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