Featured Sovereign Election

Adam Clarke:

Again, that is Clarke's quote.
That is not your position; never has been your position; and in fact goes entirely against your position. Don't even pretend to think that you agree with Adam Clarke.

Here again, don't play the hypocrite Icon. You disagree with Spurgeon as well:

You have never held this view. You have held an opposite view that God selects before the foundation of the world some to eternal life and damns the rest to eternal torment in the lake of fire--just like the WOCF says so. That is not what MacArthur believes. He does not believe in the hard determinism you believe in.
He believes that those that are damned are not damned on the basis of predetermined reprobation, but rather because they have rejected Christ.

As Clarke said:
The path to damnation is the path of one who rejects the person and provision of Jesus Christ and holds on to sin.

Calvinism doesn't provide the mercy enough for the reprobate to even understand the gospel so that they have a chance to reject it. That is what Calvin taught. Even if they did hear the gospel they could not understand it for they were corpses when it came to the truth of the gospel. But MacArthur and Clarke are not espousing that view.
You, however, do.

 

One of the reasons I stay away from the cal debates is you get sucked into spending more time arguing over who is not debating the right way and who is deliberately misusing context that everyone just talks past each other. It is not fruitful and mostly childish. It edifies no one.

 

DHK

Adam Clarke:

Adam Clarke offered his opinion.I believe he has missed the thrust of the passage. I do not share his opinion as I see it as not interacting with the passage. He has God being a spectator. In other words...

God grants repentance. He describes it as He is willing.....He does not grant it, but if anyone wants to repent...He is willing to "let them"

This is to avoid the passage, compromise and say nothing, as men do not want to repent and seek God.They need a supernatural work to happen to them...as AA pointed out to you in John 3...which you rejected.

This is saying very little...it is like saying....God did not shut the door on the ark until judgement day. While true....it does not really address the passage except to portray a spector God rather than an active God in control of all that is coming to pass. I do not read or use Adam Clarke often because this is what he offers.

Rather than answerwhat I actually did write in two posts...you decide to play "my Spokesmen" because you cannot interact with what I actually posted.
This is why RM commented on what he did....you did not stay on point. Of course you have no answer to it. So you try and speak for me now:laugh:

I do agree with Spurgeon as I said;

1]Those who perish and go to hell,...yes they do

2]go because they are depraved ....yes having died in Adam...T

3]are depraved and worthy only of hell ...yes they are

4]and have rejected the only remedy, Jesus Christ...they do every time:thumbs:

5]not because they were created for hell and predetermined to go there. ... I hold the infralapsarian position, although it would not bother me if the supra lapsarian position was the biblical one.....God can and does do whatever he wills to do.

6]The path to damnation is the path of one who rejects the person and provision of Jesus Christ and holds on to sin ....this is also true

So you are not my spokesmen...you are fired:laugh:

Show where I have not...better still answer my last two posts rather than hide like an ostritch.

This is the biblical view which you deny

--

They do go into second death ...they are responsible to repent and believe but as Spurgeon says...they hold on to their sin

While that is a good confession of faith...as a baptist...I use the london Baptist confession;
By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace;

others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

Got it now:wavey:

sure he does...I have listened and read him for over 30 years..

The gospel is offered , they refuse

stop hiding behind Calvin...I did not mention or quote him did I?
Answer me from the last two posts which offer correction to your error.

 

I see a Calvinist posted two non-germane verses in yet another futile attempt to change the subject. They have no answer, other than "taint so" for Matthew 23:13, Romans 3:10-11, and 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3.

And then we have the video of a person failing to accomplish what he had intended. This typifies the Calvinist behavior of charging opponents with their behavior. All they have is belittle and disparage those who hold well supported biblical views, and so reading the posts presents plop, plop, plop into the mattress.

 

Hi Robert Willians, why not address the three passages? Why try once again to change the subject?

I see you listed (#8) 1 Cor. 2:14 but somehow did not address the passage where Paul teaches that unregenerates cannot understand spiritual meat, but can understand spiritual milk. I am reminded of the movie Top Gun, where Maverick will not engage.

And I see where Romans 3:10-12 is mentioned but again the Calvinist addition, "at any time" is not acknowledged.

And of course Matthew 23:13 is no where to be found.

You have got to love them folks.

 

Again let me reiterate that part of Spurgeon which you seem to left out or misunderstood, or just deliberately ignored.
Either way it does not agree with what you posted above.

Do you understand now?
They go to hell because they deliberately reject Christ according to Spurgeon
NOT,
Because they were determined or foreordained or elected to go there.

 

A Conversation with the Lord

The Lord: “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.”

Man: “Surely there are 50 righteous some of the time.”

The Lord: “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.”

Man: “Surely there are 45 righteous some of the time.”

The Lord: “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.”

Man: “Surely there are 30 righteous some of the time.”

The Lord: “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.”

Man: “Surely there are 20 righteous some of the time.”

The Lord: “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.”

Man: “Surely there are 10 righteous some of the time.”

The Lord: “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.”

Man: "Surely there is one righteous some of the time."

The Lord: "If there is one righteous I will not destroy your city."

(Man’s city is destroyed.)

Man: “But surely there was one person who sought after You some of the time.”

The Lord: “There is none who seeketh after Me. It is I who seeketh after them. Have you never read the account of Adam and Eve in the Garden? Do you not know why I am the Good Shepherd?”

Man: “But what about Matt. 23:13?”

The Lord: "Read My Lips………….THERE IS NONE THAT DOETH GOOD, NO, NOT ONE."

(Man is silent having been turned into a pile of doggy booyah.)

The Lord: "There is a limit to how long My Spirit will put up with such human ignorance."

 

By comparing Scripture with Scripture we can better determine its meaning.

For example, Christ was pronouncing scathing judgments upon the scribes and Pharisees before launching into “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem.”

They are the ones whom He addresses as ‘Jerusalem’: the religious leaders who denied the people the means by which they could hear and learn the truth –

Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city

The fact that the leaders ‘would not’ exemplifies the unregenerate lack of will to do that which is spiritually pleasing to God….despite the number of witnesses standing before them testifying to the truth.

The Scripture you cite does not indicate ‘weeping.’ Of course, Jesus wept according to Scriptures. However, I could find no scriptural authority claiming Jesus wept during this particular discourse.

Jesus proclaimed it had been His will to evangelize and gather a people for His name, but the religious leaders would not have it.

The serious Bible student need be apprised of the significant difference between the Preceptive and Decretive wills of God.

The Preceptive will is that will of God which publicly declares the duty which men rightfully owe God and each other.

This will is countermanded every day.

This was the will which the religious leaders refused to obey.

However, the Decretive will is that secret will of God which must certainly come to pass.

Neither man nor devil can countermand this will. (e.g. Dan. 4:35)

It is that will which came to pass, as clearly seen in Acts 2 ff. when 3,000 were immediately added to the church rolls.

Election always results in saving faith, for it is most definitely decreed in His secret all-powerful Decretive will:

as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

 

Another good post protestant.....you are pitching a no hit shut out with Van and DHK:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

:laugh::wavey::laugh::thumbsup:

 

Well,,,if you notice...this happens on one side of the discussion.
DHK cannot answer so he jumps to somewhere else.....He then tries to say I cannot believe what I do believe:laugh:

What do you believe on the 2 pet 3 passage as discussed here?

 

While Election and Reprobation are biblical doctrines....you understand neither one....so of course you will claim I have not agreed with Spurgeon. It is not my fault you do not grasp these teachings.

as an aside...men go to hell for their sin even if they do not hear of Jesus....

But I notice you were not able to respond to my two posts on 2 pet3.....because you know anything you post will be as empty as your post on eph 1 thread....that was really horrible...maybe you can edit it before anyone reads it????:laugh::laugh:...too late Reformed and AA....have jumped on that fresh error:laugh:

 

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

This is a lament. In case you don't know what that means, Merriam-Webster says:

Concerning the verse A.T. Robertson says:

It is a lament. As a mother hen "broods" over her chicks. The imagery is there.

The first meaning given of lament is: to mourn aloud : wail!
Jesus wasn't a conservative Westerner wearing a suit, carrying a brief case, and going to his office.
Nicodemus called him "Rabbi." This was in the first century in Israel. He lamented over the citizens of Jerusalem for he knew the destruction that was about to come upon the entire city. It would not just affect its religious leaders; it would affect all who lived there--and he had compassion on all.
--As the leaders go, so goes the city.
When Christ was crucified, it wasn't just the few that ruled; it wasn't just the Sanhedrin, and a few Roman soldiers, No. There was an entire mob crying out: "Crucify Him; Crucify Him," far more than the number of the Sanhedrin.

He never gave up on them. He even kept Judas to the bitter end.
He allowed the religious leaders to engage him right to the end and always answered their questions. He never gave up on them.
If Calvinism was true Christ knew which ones were not the elect; he knew the wickedness of their hearts; their intent to kill him. He should have just ignored them. They were doomed to Hell anyway. But he didn't. He demonstrated his love to them--all of them.
This is demonstrated here:
Mark 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

God has declared what is his will in His word. It is his will for all believers to obey the Great Commission, but all will not. Or that all believers spend time in prayer, but all will not, etc. That doesn't mean God fails, rather it means man has a free will and he disobeys God.
This happens to unsaved man as well.
The unsaved have the responsibility of responding to God and accepting his free gift of salvation. If he rejects that gift he condemns himself to hell. That is the reason he is damned, not because it is predetermined before the foundation of the world.

That is false.
Faith is faith. "Saving faith" is not found in the Bible.
Election is a term that applies to the blessings given to believers. It is not used in direct connection to salvation or damnation.

 

Very true. And when comparing Scripture with Scripture we discover that none seek God, none come to Christ, unless drawn by the Father. (Romans 3:11 cf. John 6:65)

The ‘whosoever’ includes all men without distinction of race, religion, social status, gender, nationality, etc.

Our Lord does not discriminate when it comes to saving repentant sinners.

Did God give His Son for the salvation of those who never heard of Christ?
………the timeline of which encompasses several thousands of years pertaining to tens of millions of souls.

How were they ‘saved’?

Billy Graham understood this anomaly. If God loves everyone and justly gives everyone a fair shot at salvation, how does one account a 'fair shot' given to the millions who never heard of Christ?

His answer: Salvation is possible through believing there is a God by faith in Nature.

What is your explanation?

Regretfully, you have chosen to disregard the context and use this one verse as a pretext for proving a false premise.

And what of the tens of millions who never heard of Christ?

Was He not willing that they should perish?

The Elect are the ‘beloved.’ (2Peter 3:1)The ‘beloved’ for whom Christ died will never perish. Christ promises as much. (John 10:11; 10:27-29)

 

:applause: :thumbs: This is so well put. Sadly, misguided men like Van still won't get it. Don't believe me? Watch.