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Sovereignty, Free Will, & Romans 9

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Humblesmith, Jan 6, 2011.

  1. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Whoa, you are going to get them all upset, they think this stuff is brilliant and that only those with superior intellect could understand it.

    It is not only intellectually lazy, it is immature and irresponsible.
     
  2. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    anyone?????

    Hello???

    I would like someone to define the following...



    1) Will
    2) Purpose
    3) Soverignty

    Last, tell me how you remove "will" from purpose.
    ...remove "will" from sovereign condition



    I mean...this is the main point. If it falls all logic built upon it falls.

    Why is everyone dodging this????
     
  3. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    Perhaps, folks simply do not enjoy being "shredded" by your viewpoints, and your definitions of how things are. It simply a "never ending debate. I am glad you are happy with where "You have landed", I am perfectly content with where I am.

    Will: The human will is the faculty of the human mind by which we decide or conceive of ourselves as deciding upon and initiating action.
     
  4. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    Sovereignty:

    Sovereignty does not mean God can do anything. It means God can do anything that is not contradictory to His nature.

    God is never surprised by the events of life. He is sovereign over all decisions that respect or reject Him as God. The sovereignty of God does not dispel or eliminate my human responsibility and right of decision.

    In his rewrite of Axioms of Religion, Hershel Hobbs states, "The holy and loving God has the right to be sovereign. With reference to God, sovereignty means that without the counsel or consent of anyone outside himself, God acts in accord with his nature and will to accomplish his benevolent and redemptive purpose."

    This definition should draw us to God as our loving and wise Creator, Redeemer and Father. J. I. Packer goes so far as to say, "The recognition of God's sovereignty is the basis of our prayers...every time we pray is to confess our own impotence and God's sovereignty."

    Freedom of Man
    No one can wonder that to be human is to be free. Freedom is normally regarded as a good thing. We are free with the God-given power of choice to embrace the good things that God has provided or to reject it.

    Someone said it well: God made the fact of freedom. Humans are responsible for the acts of freedom. Because we have both scripture and moral reason to inform our conscience, we are morally responsible for our decisions and resulting actions.

    Norman Giesler in the book, Chosen But Free, sums it up this way, "Adam was able to sin or not to sin. After the fall, Adam was able to sin but unable not to sin."

    Sin is by free moral choice. There can be no established responsibility without the ability of response. When God demands something of us, He always provides a way to accomplish it. However, any decision that produces spiritual good and moves us toward God is assisted by grace.
     
  5. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Please don't give me credit for "shredded" fluffy talk by asking what he means. It is clear that some jump to agree before they think about it. All one needs to do is ask what he menas, and the truth shreds the fluff to nothing. Maybe this, and not the reason you have given is the reason there is no reply. Not much to say about hot air.

    This is true. BTW...this is a debate board. That is what we do hear. If one does not wish to debate, they need not post.


    Please don't give me credit for where I landed. God has placed me here.

    ok
     
  6. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    You forgot to post the link where this came from...

    http://www.flbaptist.org/MinistryPr...sArticles/TheSovereigntyofGodAdefinition.aspx
     
  7. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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  8. Logos1

    Logos1 New Member

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    Calvinism directly contradicts scripture

    Only have time for a short post at the moment.

    One need only look as far as the bible to see that Calvinism is not based on a biblical footing, but misguided interpretations. Just look at Ecclesiastes 9:11 which clearly states that all things are not predetermined, but validate coincidental, chance outcomes.

    Again I saw that under the sun the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, nor bread to the wise, nor riches to the intelligent, nor favor to those with knowledge, but time and chance happen to them all.

    Obviously anybody who wants to argue that God has predetermined every outcome doesn't need to waste his time arguing with men--their argument is with God.


    “Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

    Why thank you Mel!
     
  9. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Hello Logos1. I'm not sure that the Calvinists here [I, for one, don't] are arguing that God has predetermined every outcome of everything at all times. He can if He wants and at least sometimes He does. If memory serves me right that Greek word translated 'predestinate' in the KJB NT is used only four times, and that always in reference to God choosing out a people for His own possession, and NOT to events in general.
     
    #29 kyredneck, Jan 10, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 10, 2011
  10. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    :confused: Cause is defined as bringing about a result. If He is the first cause, He is the cause of sin. It cannot be "no...well yes and no" as it is the same thing. It's completely inconsistent to say that salvation is all God and reprobation is both God and man.
     
  11. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Brother Logos,

    I really do appreciate your zealousness for your beliefs. Your willingness and hard labor to find a verse, any verse that you believe supports your views continues to be noted by all I'm sure. Yet, in your desire to be prove yourself right, you cannot see the truth in many of the verse you keep posting.

    Ecclesiastes 9:11 is yet another attempt at this. It too has fallen short again. This verse proclaims just the opposite of what you say it does. Let's take a look.

    One key phrase to understand in the book of Ecclesiastes is “under the sun'.

    In short the writer is looking at life on a horizontal plan. He is NOT looking up to the Heavens, or...he is writing with no consideration of God. At times he removes himself from this state and makes a statement about God. But he always comes back to the idea of life under the sun, or life with no consideration of God. That is, he always returns, till he reaches the end of the book where he says, Life has no meaning, if you do not follow God.

    Now your verse...

    Notice that the writer has once again returned to the main subject...UNDER THE SUN.

    In this state he makes this statement...in LIFE the battle is STRONG..but not all wise men have money, nor do all wise have skills, >>>>>>but favors (the blessings of riches and skills) are given to them by CHANCE/fate!!.

    What he is saying, is with no consideration of God, fate is in control giving out whatever man has.

    Now what does that mean?

    To me it means, when you DO consider God, just the opposite is realized. That is, when you see some men with riches, and some people with none, and those that are rich, are not always those that are wise, and when you see some with skills, and some with very little skills, and those with no skills are smart, we must understand that all blessings come from GOD.


    :)

    I'm still not so sure Mel
     
  12. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Ohooooooo ROFL....Wiping tears away (Like the Speaker of the House). Ohhhh, your killing me son......best line I heard all day! Cant beat that :laugh::thumbs:
     
  13. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    I agree so long as you implement the word "ultimate".

    I do not think you can logically get around the fact that God is the prime mover the first cause of ALL.
     
  14. Logos1

    Logos1 New Member

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    Good to hear from you

    Hey Kyredneck,

    Good to hear from you again. Trust you are well. I didn’t realize you are Calvinist—but that is ok. Plenty of good Christians are. I confess I’m disappointed it seems to be on the rise in Baptist circles the last few years. I think it is a phase though that has been waxing for a while and will eventually wane. And, probably continue to wax and want over time.

    I have no problem saying God sometimes works out situations in certain ways.

    I have no problem believing some things are predestine like the Hebrew people having the Promised Land. I think that is a great example of God working through the free will of man to accomplish His purposes. He didn’t force the first generation to concede to his will and do as he said—He let them follow their own will and as a result die off in the wilderness and when the next generation came along and was willing to follow His will he lead them into the promised land exerting his sovereignty over the situation and still working through man’s free will to accomplish His will.

    I see this as a glorious testimony to the sovereignty of God.

    I know I wouldn’t find any satisfaction in somebody loving me because I made them love me. I would only feel satisfaction in their having control over their will and loving me because they wanted to of their own free will. Forced affection is hollow.

    I think God is big enough that he rises above needing to force us to love him and would get no satisfaction from such hollow devotion. I think he feels gratified when we want to love him of our own free will and he finds value in devotion to him when it comes from our heart.

    Take care kyredneck.

    “Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

    Why thank you Mel!
     
  15. Logos1

    Logos1 New Member

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    The Queen doth Protest too Much

    The Queen or King of Calvinism in this case doth protest too much. I’ll just refer to jarthur001’s post #31 above instead of reposting it.

    It appears such long, winding, and twisted torture of scripture and logic makes it self evident that defending Calvinism is pushing scripture and logic to the breaking point of reason.

    I can’t understand where you are trying to go with this logic so won’t get wrapped up in responding to it. It reminds me of Abe’s Lincoln’s story about the crooked fence that when the pig tried to escape the pig pen the fence was so crooked he wound up back on the same side of the fence he started from.

    Perhaps that is a great metaphor for Calvinism. In a way the pig was a Calvinist and kept outsmarting himself with the twisted fence.

    It must take a very confused mind to think God demands the Hebrews have no other god’s before them and then forces them to worship false gods. (One could say there must be a definition of craziness in there somewhere--but I'm not the kind of guy to point that out.)

    You could go on forever like that pointing out the deficiencies of Calvinism. It’s child’s play.

    It’s easy to blame everything on God. It takes more thought to try and grasp how to reconcile God’s sovereignty and man’s free agency. It’s not always easy, it takes effort, desire, commitment, and some prayer for understanding, but I think in the end God feels appreciative of effort to grasp the difficult rather than just taking the easy way out and blaming him.

    Well jarthur001 even though I think you are lost in a crooked fence here I salute your effort to find the other side. I admire your tenacity and respect your right to believe what you see fit to believe. I don't dislike Calvinist--just think they are misguided.

    “Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

    Why thank you Mel!
     
  16. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  17. Humblesmith

    Humblesmith New Member

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    This has been the classic position of Calvinism, which says that God is sovereign and predetermines issues of salvation, but not every issue, such as whether I order chicken or fish for supper.

    The double-predestinarians have traditionally taken it one step further, saying that God predermines who Goes to hell.

    Calvinism has traditionally held that God predermines the outcomes of salvation, God knew about sin and worked it into His plan, making a greater good from it. All this has been considered within orthodox Christianity, even though some Christians disagree with the teaching, they would consider it within the bounds of orthodoxy.

    But traditionally, not even the most strident Calvinist would say God empowers sin, and is the enabling force behind evil. This is not Calvinism or Arminianism, it is some third thing, some monstrous doctrine that has crossed the line into heresy. Saying God is the enabling force behind evil (the efficient cause) is not Christian doctrine, and none of the classic Calvinists which I am familiar would go this far. Not even the Westminster Confession holds to such a teaching.
     
    #37 Humblesmith, Jan 12, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 12, 2011
  18. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    At LAST! Thank you.......but we Reformed Baptists generally hold to the 1689 Confessions of faith. Leave the WC to the Baby Sprinklers OK.
     
  19. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    A king I am not, but rather one that joys in serving the King. In other words, a slave.

    Brother Logos,

    Please live up to the name you have chosen for yourself in this setting. This is not a Calvinist only view. Nearly all theologians agree with what I stated. Here is but one...

    Charles Bridges
    Commentary on the book of Ecclesiastes
    1860

    http://www.archive.org/stream/expositionofbook00bridrich#page/282/mode/1up

    Here it is again short and sweet.

    1) Good things do not only happen to the wise..
    2) That being the case, we know it is not in mans power to set his ways.
    3) Therefore things happen by chance, if you do not consider God.
    4) Or if GOD IS CONSIDERED all things happen by God.

    Now read all of Chapter 9 and tell me if this is not what it says. People get in trouble when they cherry pick verses out of context to fit their own logic. This is one of my favorite books. I have been trying to write a book on it for 10 years, but each time I finish, God gives me more insight. I'm not sure I will ever complete it. I have managed by God's grace to complete two other books, but this one is rich beyond this poor slave.

    Let me show you why I say it msut be seen this way.
    The statement in bold. Is that alone BETTER than all else? Is not serving God better? Yes serving God is indeed better, but if God is not considered..(life under the sun)...the best one has is to enjoy life and die.
    BTW...If Abe was a believer at all he was a Calvinist. His mother and Father were Calvinist that went to a Hard Shell Baptist church, which is Calvinist. While in Washington DC, Abe went to New York Avenue Presbyterian Church. One thing is clear, Abe believed in Calinist view of election. This is seen in his writings.

    Now that you understand that it was YOU and not the vast number of theologians that have twisted this passage.....who is the pig?


    You will never be what God wants you to be, with a life of pride. Most of us live our lives wanting to be something that God never desired for us.

    My friend John in this video clip gives me a high view of God that I do not know if I will ever understand. John's life and not pride, brings God glory.

    http://www.farese.com/video2.htm
     
    #39 Jarthur001, Jan 12, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 12, 2011
  20. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    The 1689 is largely the same as the WCoF. The former is even closer to the Savoy Declaration which was based on the WCoF.
     
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