Come back to the Scriptures.
The curse. Who pronounces it? Is it pronounced upon those God favors, or upon those who are vessels of wrath?
Spiritual Death II
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Aaron, Jan 26, 2019.
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Stay focused.
You stated ignorance in terms you did not grasp how there could be more than two ways of viewing Christ's death - it was either God showing favor to Christ or God showing wrath to Christ.
Personally I am a bit surprised that you think God showing favor was an option, but whatever.
My point is that your limiting it to those possibilities is ignorant of several other theories that view the Cross as God's will but man (not God) as the perpetrator.
I am not suggesting you need to go to a bible college or seminary before engaging these types of posts. But you should at least educate yourself prior to making asinine assumptions that can be disproven by a simple search of opposing views of Atonement.
There is a popular level book, The Nature of the Atonement: Four Views that may help illustrate other ideas you apparently do not know exist. These are not new views, but may be outside of your tradition.
Good luck. Prepare yourself, learn a bit more outside your tradition, and then lets have a good conversation.
JonC -
It isn't the lash.
It isn't the thorns.
What made Christ sweat great drops of blood? Roman crucifixion? The thieves that were crucified on either side didn't sweat blood. Lesser men, non Christian, have walked into more excruciating physical pains in war than in crucifixion. I dare say that many of Christ's disciples have suffered physically more than He did. Had more vile things done them. Were defiled in sick and twisted ways more than Christ.
But those aren't the pains of death.
The pains of death aren't physical, just as you finally got around to saying.
So, elaborate. What are the pains of death? -
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Thanks for the reminder and caution.I think it is a battle line and quite significant. This error here leads to many errors.
You can see it in JonC not understanding the atonement correctly. JonC is a nice guy, but he likes to read all manner of things and sometimes you stand the danger of getting infected with false ideas. He is not looking for a cure at this time as he thinks he has it right and is calling the historic.faith myths and fables and traditions. -
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
JonC,
Do you think Adam was created with a dead spirit? or a spirit that was alive?
If Adam had a spirit that was alive...can you think of any event in scripture that would have left Adam...with a dead spirit?
You keep diverting to what you want to speak about, and not answering direct questions. It is obvious you cannot answer.
What I asked you and Jon Schaff is this; let me clarify. In your false view-
1]Did Adam not have a spirit?
2]Did Adam not have a soul?
3] If Adam had a spirit, pre-fall was it a dead spirit?
4] Are you suggesting God created man with a dead spirit/soul?
5] If Adam had a "spirit/soul" that was alive and able to commune with God, Did any EVENT happen that changed the status of the non material part of Adam, his spirit, or soul?
6] is there any event that left Adam with a dead spirit?
7] how are ALL MEN spiritually dead?
Biblicist crushed you on these issues and you were unable to respond. Your false straw man about all mankind being spiritually alive and then dead is not an issue that anyone is raising so stop saying it.
We are dealing with Adam, prefall, post fall. I numbered seven specific questions so you cannot worm out like you have done on the last three threads:Thumbsup:Thumbsup:Thumbsup:Cautious:Cautious:Cautious
I do trust scripture despite you insinuation that I do not. I do not depart from the faith once delivered to the saints however, which you are revealing you are drifting full sail in that direction.
We do believe that, so we cannot follow you away from the safe harbor scripture gives to us.
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“If a man has committed a sin worthy of death and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, his corpse shall not hang all night on the tree, but you shall surely bury him on the same day (for he who is hanged is accursed of God), so that you do not defile your land which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance.
Are you suggesting that man controls God like a voodoo witch???!!!!! Hang someone and they are cursed by God.
I think you may need to study a bit more here. Hanging did not make one cursed but was a sign Israel had found the guy guilty of such a crime as to be cursed of God.
Read Deuteronomy 21. Then read Psalm 22 right afterwards. Who estermen Jesus stricken and cursed? Hint - the wicked men for whom He died....not God.
Try again. -
I know you will object but - What does Scripture say?
1. There is no spiritual life ourside of Christ (you add "except Adam")
2. Spiritual life is everlasting (you add "except with Adam")
3. Spiritual life is God's Spirit in us by which He causes obedience (you add "except with Adam")
4. Christ IS that Life (you add "except with Adam" indicating God died in Adam).
5. Scripture says God made Adam a living soul and contrasts this with Christ a life giving Spirit (you add "but Adam was also spiritually alive")
Get the picture. ALL you have is the philosophical idea Adam had to have been alive in order to be spiritually dead. But Scripture presents Adam (natural man) as simply not having a spirit that is spiritually alive. Was Adam created this way? If James 3 is correct, then yes, he was. He was created "of the flesh" and not "of the spirit" and even Adam needed to be born again as evidenced by Adam eating the fruit.
Your "what if's" and "how was Adam before he sinned" IS philosophy by definition. Stop trying to wiggle out of it and pretend it's theology. It is not. It's humanistic philosophy - period. It is trying to go around Christ and God's revelation to discover other "truths".
There is Icon and there is Scripture.
Your idea that Christ who IS the spiritual Life, God's own Spirit in us, was in Adam and Adam experienced His death is nonsense.
Contrary to your narrative Scripture teaches that spiritual life is "Christ in us". God is not inept.
Think about Who this Life is (not your philosophy about what this life is but Who Scripture say IS this Life before you trample over God by claiming He died when Adam sinned.
And MAKE NO MISTAKE Icon - when you claim one is alive spiritually you are claiming God's work described in Ezekiel applies to them (as Paul put it, "Christ in us"). When you claim this was "undone" then you make God a liar. Spiritual life is everlasting because God is that Life.
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You can't get around it.
So now the question is, does this curse issue from God's favor, or His wrath? -
Your better argument would be that Christ became a curse for us. At least there you are not committing a logical fallacy. I suppose the only problem would be that I actually agree Christ became a curse for us. I even belueve Christ suffered the wages of sin, although he never sinned.
Nice try, though. -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
No JonC...I did not ask you to repeat your view of what spiritual life is...
I did ask you did Adam have a spirit?
A human spirit?
Maybe I can only ask you one question at a time so you do not confuse yourself avoiding the questions:Sick:Sick:Sick
Again, I am not asking you about God the Holy Spirit.:Cautious:confused::Cautious
Did Adam have a spirit? Try that first:Redface then we can ask the next question.
Your excuses have run out my friend. It is becoming quite obvious who is going to philosophy . Your theology of man is defective if you cannot answer simple theological questions. -
Ask them (just the questions, skip the diatribe) and I will answer. I only answered the one by having Scripture address the error.
(And one color, preferably black. I usually skip over the words not in black.....exceot for Jesus 'cause we all know He used red ink). -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I asked in post 73 in black ink the first two questions also. Did Adam have a human spirit in Gen1:31? I am trying to get clarification on your posting.
I would like you to answer all seven questions.
No need to deflect by posting 5x that b.c. eternal life is In Christ. Everyone agrees. Focus on the seven questions if you would be so kind. -
2]Did Adam not have a soul? Yes, Adam had a soul. (see Deuteronomy 4, Psalm 61, Jeremiah 6; Joshua 23; and 1 Corinthians 15)
3] If Adam had a spirit, pre-fall was it a dead spirit? Not applicable. Per Scripture Adam had what it was to be man, but not “spiritual life” as defined by the Bible (see the answer to the first question along with the passages noted)
4] Are you suggesting God created man with a dead spirit/soul? No. I am suggesting that God gave Adam the breath of life and made Adam a living soul. Adam was, however, did not merit in himself the glory of God (Adam’s state did not equate to Spiritual Life as defined in the Bible). Adam was created as man. This state of creation is evidenced by how Adam behaved under God’s command (see James 3; John 11, 14; and 1 Corinthians 15).
5] If Adam had a "spirit/soul" that was alive and able to commune with God, Did any EVENT happen that changed the status of the non material part of Adam, his spirit, or soul? Adam did not have a “spirit/soul”. Adam did have a soul. But Scripture does not define “spiritual life” or “of the Spirit” as “having a spirit/soul. What Scripture tells us is that there was a change in Adam. He became “like God” in knowing good and evil. Scripture does not speak of a change in Adam’s nature or as Adam dying spiritually (Biblically this would be God dying in Adam or, at best, Adam defeating God as the Spirit worked to do good and Adam chose evil).
6] is there any event that left Adam with a dead spirit? Not biblically. There are a few philosophical ideas out there about two human natures (a pre-fall nature and a post-fall nature). But the Bible does not actually speak of these theories. The Bible presents possessing spiritual life as Christ dwelling in that person and God putting His Spirit in that person. So if we stick to the Bible the answer is simply that God did not create Adam a spiritual being, but a human being that would need to be reborn (like a seed that must fall to the ground to become what it was ultimately meant to become). (see 1 Corinthians 15; Genesis 3, James 3)
7] how are ALL MEN spiritually dead? Natural man is not created “in Christ”. Christ IS the Life. Adam was created “of the flesh”. Adam is the representative of natural man where as Christ a life giving Spirit. Spiritual life is Christ living in us. (John 1, 3; 1 Corinthians 15; 2 Corinthians 13 Romans 5, 8)
Do you define "spiritual life" as "Christ living in us" (Romans 8)? -
Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Tell me I'm wrong if that's what you think, but please don't patronize me. -
Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Adam is quite unable to give life to his fallen seed; only the Lord Jesus Christ can do this. That is why He is described as a 'life-giving spirit.' But Christ's body before His resurrection was just the same as Adam's (Hebrews 2:14-18), except, of course, that it never saw corruption and did not became dust. And if Christ returns before we die, nor will ours (1 Corinthians 15:51-52).
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Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Adam without the tree of life in that garden was to die. And because of aquiring God's knowledge of good and evil, God prevented them from living forever in a sinful state, being finite man with the knowledge of evil (Genesis 3:22). Mankind as decendants of Adam inherit this condition, this being the cause of mankind to be spiritually dead.
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