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Featured Spiritual Life

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JonC, Feb 17, 2020.

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  1. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Excellent post, David. :) Clearly Adam could not have received the wages of sin before he sinned. Nor did he need to be saved before he sinned. I think Genesis 2:25 is helpful if one considers it theologically. The first couple were naked - they had no covering - but it wasn't a problem for them until such time that they sinned (Genesis 3:7). So they had no covering for sin - there was no arrangement to cover sin - but it didn't matter because there was no sin...........until suddenly there was. And the covering they made for themselves was entirely insufficient to cover their sin, so it was God Himself who provided the covering for Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:21) and for that to happen, an innocent creature had to die, prefiguring the Lamb of God who would take away the sin of the world.
    Adam was unique. It is inappropriate to speak of him as 'regenerate' or 'born again' for obvious reasons, but he must, pre-fall, have possessed spiritual life. Spiritual death is outlined in Ephesians 2:1-3, and part of that condition is to be under the wrath of God. Pre-fall, Adam was not under the wrath of God. He was placed in a delightful garden, given all manner of food to eat, given dominion over the earth and permitted to give names to all the animals. He was doing 'good works which God prepared beforehand' which is part of the definition of spiritual life. Genesis 3:8a certainly suggests that God was accustomed to walk in the garden and to have fellowship with the couple. That again is an element of spiritual life (John 14:23).
     
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  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Adam's state was in many ways unique to him!
     
  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I believe there is only one spiritual life, not one in the OT and one in the NT. What is born of the flesh is flesh and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. Remember, Jesus was talking to Nicodemus before the Resurrection.
     
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I do not believe anyone is suggesting Adam died before he sinned.

    But how do you define spiritual life?
     
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    1. I believe adam had a unique version of spiritual life before he fell!
     
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    So you believe there are three types of Spiritual life, the one Adam had, the one the OT saints had, and the one we have in Christ?
     
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I believe thatAdam was created already having a type of spiritual life, as was in relationship with his creator, which was good until he fell, and OT saints and us now in NC will have same glorification, just we experience the fullness in Christ that they longer for back then to receive!
     
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    But you said the OT saints had a different kind of spiritual life, correct?
     
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    They will share in our glorification status at second coming, but did not experience the Holy spirit as we do now under the NC.
     
  10. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    Actually it does define death as the absence of a relationship with God, a separation, if you look at the underlying Greek. See BDAG entry on the word.
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    That is the Second Death, eternal separation from God!
     
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You are pulling a shell game on me David.

    θάνατος does mean a separation (of "soul from the body") . But the word itself does not mean an "absence of a relationship with God".
     
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I think that it can and does mean both!
     
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    That's the issue. Words actually have meaning. We can think that a car can mean both an automobile and a dog but just thinking that does not make it so.

    The word means death - a separation from the soul from the body, an absence of life, etc. If you qualify the word as "spiritually dead" or "brain dead" or "physically dead" then you may clarify or even change a normal meaning. But in the case of Scripture it does not. In the passage (Romans 6:23) it is, I believe, speaking of the normal use of the word (the separation of the soul from the body or an absence of physical life). This corresponds with Paul's usage of the word (in Corinthians he goes even farther to emphasize this as related to the physical/ flesh/ natural in opposition to the spiritual).

    So no. The word alone cannot mean both. "Death" is never used, to my knowledge anyway, in Scripture to mean "the absence of a relationship with God" (although that may very well be the result).

    The reason I am being so picky and careful here is not that I reject everything you or @davidtaylorjr have pointed out but that I believe it deserves the utmost care (and we can only do this to the best of our abilities).

    I know that the Bible does not use the word "spiritual life", but I believe Spiritual life is, IMHO, defined as the life of the Spirit in Scripture. The Bible does talk about an eternal life of imperishable seed, which is God's Own Spirit, which is Christ Himself, which is imparted to man only in Christ to men God seals, as "Christ in us". That is what I believe spiritual life to be. I see no other type of spiritual life mentioned in Scripture to include the other two types you have observed.

    You, @davidtaylorjr and I may all hold different definitions here. That is fine. At least we have a definition of spiritual life (@Martin Marprelate has been unable to even approach the question). We can learn from each other while disagreeing. But for me, I do not see any other type of spiritual life offered in the Bible.

    If I use the word "spiritual life" you know I am only talking about the Life (about what Scripture speaks of in terms of as "of the Spirit". I know when you speak of spiritual life it will depend on the time (pre-Fall spiritual life, OT spiritual life, and post-Resurrection spiritual life). We won't agree but this way way we can at least understand each other.
     
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Adam was in a covenant relationship with God before the Fall, did he need Jesus as His Messiah at that point in time?
     
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Something that also needs to be examined is "relationship". All men have a relationship with God in one way or another. It is being righteous and in communion with God that matters.
     
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    There are no verses that define Adam as being in a covenant with God.

    God told Adam that if he ate of the fruit death would follow. This was a command with a consequenc - not a covenant.

    That is one problem with Covenant theology. It downgrades the term "Covenant". If I tell my son not to throw the ball in the house, and when he does I am going to ground him, that is not a covenant.

    It is not also implying should my son never throw the ball in the house he will never be grounded.
     
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The reason that it is so important to define these terms as definitions are often the dividing point in discussions. But more than that, we build on our definitions. If our definition is wrong then it calls into question our doctrines that involve these definitions.

    @Yeshua1 and I disagree on definition and we can discuss this. But @Martin Marprelate has no definition for spiritual life. If he does not understand spiritual life then how can he offer anything of value to a discussion of spiritual death?

    That has been my point across threads. Instead of responding with someone else's ideas the first step is to always define terms. If someone cannot do this then they need to reconsider their view as it has no proper foundation.
     
  19. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. Romans 8:20,21


    What was/is the futility, vanity in KJV same word as in LXX of Ecc 1:2,3 Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity. What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?

    What is the hope spoken thereof?

    Was the creation subjected to the bondage of corruption or is the bondage of corruption different from futility/vanity?

    Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Peter 1:18-20

    Does law effect/affect redemption?
    Gal 4:4,5 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
    Redeem from futility, bondage of corruption?

    For we know that the law (Thou shall not eat of it) is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. Rom 7:14 ESV

    What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. Psalms 8:4,5

    Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

    Why, Why. Why?

    Because the following took place before and continued after the foundation of the world and the creation of Adam 1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

    The Word would become flesh through Adam who would sin and then be redeemed for adoption as a son of God thus destroying the works of the devil before and after the foundation of the world and the devil himself.

    Man of the flesh, law, sin, death the man of disobedience, the sinless man of obedience and resurrection from the dead would all be necessary for the destruction of the devil and his works.

    Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

    IMHO
     
  20. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    Did you look up the BDAG entry?
     
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