No you are not talking about peace because peace does not originate from "spiritual union" but from justification and spiritual union is not justification and the Bible specially attributes "peace" with God to justification not spiritual union (Rom. 5:1). There is no scripture that claims "peace" occurs by spiritual union. That is purely your imagination. If not, then produce the Scripture that declares "peace" is obtained by "spiritual union" or by "regeneration"! No inferences based upon mental gymnatistics please! Clear unambiguous statements of Scripture please!
The atonement is the legal basis for ALL OF SALVATION including glorification and thus all of salvation, past, present and future "is brought about through the atonement." However, that aspect of salvation responsible for "peace with God" IN TIME AND SPACE of the elect is not the ACT of atonement but the APPLICATION of the atonement aspect of salvation called "justification by faith" (Rom. 5:1) whereby we are "reconciled" with God IN TIME AND SPACE.
Spiritual union is not the aspect of salvation obtained by atonement whereby we have "peace with God" but rather it is that aspect of salvation by the atonemetn whereby we obtain the LIFE OF GOD. Connected with each other? yes! The same? No! But that is the mental gymnastics you are trying to invent.
This is not the issue. The issue is they are not ONE AND THE SAME! Just because they have a cause and effect relationship or because you cannot have one without the other does not mean they are the same or perform the same thing or obtain the same thing. I will not enter into this muddle of confusion you are trying to invent.
I really detest vain arguments and that is why I am simply ignoring most of your reponses. Let's get to the real heart of the glaring error in this discussion and everything else will take care of itself.
Regeneration is quickening making alive but it is more as the very text you quote (Tit. 3:5) and the passage I quoted (Eph. 4:18) demonstrates this clearly.
However, we have already agreed that spiritual death is spiritual separation from God - that is there is separation between our human spirit and the Spirit of God and that is why we are alienated from the life of God - eternal life.
Hence, quickening is the opposite of spritiual separation and thus SPIRITUAL UNION between the human spirit and the Spirit of God is the opposite of spiritual separation. Unless, my memory does not serve me correctly you have already agreed to this in a previous post. Anything IN UNION is without disconnect/separation and that means the human spirit is without disconnect with the Spirit of God or else SPIRITUAL SEPARATION is the only possible alternative and that is SPIRITUAL DEATH.
Therefore, it is impossible to be in spiritual union with the Holy Spirit of God and not be indwelt by the Spirit THROUGH THAT UNION. Utterly impossible! If that indwelling by SPIRITUAL UNION is not present then SPIRIUTAL DEATH is present.
Therefore, either all prior to Pentecost were SPIRITUAL DEAD and no possibility of SPIRITUAL UNION or as your doctrine demands they were sometimes Spirituallly alive and other times Spiritually dead like a yo yo!
Last, justification is a LEGAL FORENSIC term and LEGAL action that occurs IN HEAVEN not in man as it regards the CHANGE OF HIS LEGAL POSITION before God's law not THE CHANGE OF HIS INTERNAL PERSON as his person is still SINFUL while his position before God is SINLESS. Jusifiication by faith in the atonement (His blood - Rom. 3:24-25) is the LEGAL PROPIATION/SATISFACTION of his sins before God but does not remove his sin within his PERSON. This LEGAL POSITION before God obtains "peace" with God (Rom. 5:1) but it IS not the change of man's condition. It may be the CAUSE or CONSEQUENCE (depending on your soteriology) but it is not regeneration.
Regeneration is not justification as regeneration does not refer to his POSITION legally before God but to his PERSONAL CONDITION in regard to his "spirit" NOT HIS BODY nor his soul as what is born of "Spirit is spirit" (Jn. 3:6). This has to do with his INWARD man not his OUTWARD MAN.
You cannot claim that atonement, justification and regeneration are one and the same as they are not. You can only place them in either a chronological cause and effect relationshp or a logical cause and effect relationship but you cannot say one IS the other. Neither can you claim that simply because you cannot have one without the other that they are interchangable or that they do not have distinct separate functions and obtain distinct separate aspects of salvation. However, that is precisely the kind of muddle you are presenting.
Spiritual life
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by The Biblicist, Sep 2, 2013.
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Stating the Obvious
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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There is NOTHING in scripture that states we come into spiritual union with God apart from Justification by faith (and you have not provided once, one piece of scripture for your postulation). I know the rhetoric, but I have found no scripture. Show something rather than just making statements to actually confirm your suppositions.
It is that justification that bring peace with God and therefore - spiritual union because the two can now become one. There is no spiritual union with God apart from Justification - PERIOD. If so, please show scripture.. thus far you are silent.
There is no mental gymnastics, though it seems to be a great slight of hand magic show by you in saying union with God brings life before Justification that brings peace, non-sense.
Justification brings peace BECAUSE it has allowed us to be united with Christ. Not that we are united with Christ so we can eventually have peace. That is pure non-sense. It goes against scripture which states that 'life is in Christ' and we cannot be in Christ while still in our sins. We cannot obtain 'life' without without repentance and faith (john 3:16; Rom 10:9-10, etc...)
There isn't two types of spiritual life in scripture.. both spiritual life and eternal or everlasting life are the same thing - a relationship with God and Christ Jesus.
If you don't wish to enter the muddled water then stop muddying the water and stick with what I'm saying. You can leave the discussion if you like but if your gonna put a view out here in the debate section then you need to be prepared to actually debate and not concoct erroneous views the other person isn't even saying
I'm stating your erroneous view of spiritual union prior to justification is entirely flawed and biblically incorrect. The two are distinct aspects of salvation but directly related to and a part of each other as they happen simultaneously due to one producing the effect of the other.
Eph 4:18 says NOTHING about regeneration as something that is supposedly pre-justification/salvation, as you have to add that view into the text and thus is a proof text, out of context! The passage in fact is a contrast between those who have rejected the truth and those who have already received it. So if you are claiming that regeneration is salvation - I agree. If you are claiming it something pre-faith/.. this passage does not support you presumption. -
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
The following men are said to have had the indwelling presence of the Spirit of Christ in them and not all are prophets.
1. Gen. 41:38
2. Numb. 14:24
3. Numb. 27:18
4. Isa. 63:10,11
5. Dan. 2:47; 4:2,3,9; 5:11,16; 6:2
6. 1 Pet. 1:11
7. Gal. 3:17 "in Christ"
Finally, and once again, there is no eternal salvation of any kind OUTSIDE of Christ but only "In Christ" and if those prior to Pentecost were OUTSIDE of Christ they were enemies of God. Furthemore, Faith is the the fruit of the indwelling Spirit and all in Hebrews 11 walked "by faith."
A man and a woman are UNITED legally and physically and they are not the same. Likewise the believer is united to God legally and spiritually and they are not the same. But in each there is actual union between two physically (marriage) and two spirits (regeneration). -
Calvinism 101
1) In order to enter heaven, you must be born again.
2) No OT Saint had entered heaven, even though they had gained approval through faith, when Jesus had not yet gone to the cross.
3) After Christ died, then to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, and the Lord is in heaven, sitting at the right hand of the Father.
Therefore, no OT Saint was born again, regenerated, made spiritually alive in Christ, or indwelt with the Holy Spirit before Christ died on the cross. It is a lock. And can only be evaded, dodged and avoided by an avalanche of obvious falsehoods from the mistaken views of Calvinism. -
This is salvation wrought for man.
Because of Jesus becoming the faith and receiving the promise of the Holy Spirit other men whether having lived before Jesus ie those called in the OT and those in the future can receive eternal life by that Spirit because Jesus is the faith.
That being now they can be:
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Rom 8:11
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Eph 1:13,14
Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Romans 3:20
Those called of God in the OT will be saved because of the faith to come, by faith. Those after Christ lived died and was resurrected will be saved through the faith that came by the grace of God the resurrection of Christ. And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins 1 Cor 15:17
By grace through the faith will bring salvation. -
Calvinism 101 Summarized and repeated
1) Do we need to be sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit to seek God and strive to follow Him? No, all the OT Saints who gained approval through faith did exactly that.
2) Does the Calvinism make an argument supported by scripture? No. Instead a circular argument is made where Godly spiritual living is defined as indwelt. LOL
Again, lets go over it!a) When God places us spiritually in Christ, we are made alive together with Christ, Ephesians 2:5 Thus before we are placed in Christ we are not spiritually alive by logical necessity.
b) When we are "placed in Christ" we are baptized into His death." (Romans 6:3) Therefore, no one was placed in Christ before Christ died on the cross.
c) Only after we have been baptized into Christ, can be we sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit, Ephesians 1:13. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
False! It was "imputed" to them by faith looking forward to Christ as it is imputed to us by faith looking back (Rom. 3;24-26).
Abraham lived prior to Christ and was "in Christ" by faith (Gal. 3:17) as there is no salvation for anyone at anytime OUTSIDE of Christ as Christ makes clear BEFORE the cross in John 14:6. Did the OT saints come to God by faith (Heb. 4:6}? Yes - Heb. 11:7-41. Is "faith" a fruit of the Spirit? Yes!
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Stating the Opposite of Truth
Folks, Calvinists simply deny the obvious as well as scripture. -
2. Numb. 14:24 - Caleb had another Spirit wtih him (not of the Holy Spirit but of faith) but again even it 'were' it is 'with' and not indwelling him
3. Numb. 27:18 - Again, I don't disagree the Spirit can be 'in' but it is not the same as 'indwelling'. If our indwelling cannot be removed, why is it theirs can as evidenced by statements such as "take not thy holy Spirit from me", as well as bible statements that God took His Spirit or removed it from them?
4. Isa. 63:10,11 - vs 11 reads '.. in the midst of them' not, within them.
5. Dan. 2:47; - nothing at all about being indwelt
Dan 4:2,3,9; - same as above except in vs 9.. which AGAIN, speak not of God indwelling him but in a general term of being with him.
Dan 5:11,16; vs 11 does not refer to indwelling but again regards a general sense of being 'with him' in the sense. Vs 16 reveals nothing at all about being in or with.
BTW - this one and Dan 4, no scholar I know of, (nor reformed like Gill, Henry, MacArthur, etc..) state these refer to 'indwelling'
Dan 6:2 - Let me quote you Gill on this passage, more specifically on your 'in him' portion:
6. 1 Pet. 1:11 - This does not infer anything to you view. The Spirit of God was in them but did not indwell them as the NT.
7. Gal. 3:17 "in Christ" - again, it adds nothing to your position.
Again, I do not disagree however you have YET to prove that his l;iteral eternal indwelling of His Spirit is what necessates us having spiritual union.
Regeneration is the word that is used to describe what these two events have done NOT an event unto itself separate from them but working with justification and sanctification. It is not something separate from them, it derives it's meaning and defination from what these other 2 events has both done and created.
Your error is using regeneration as a single event itself that is not predicated upon the other 2 events. However scripturally, regeneration, while it DOES refer to the spiritual condition, it does so based entirely upon justification and sanctification and does not exist separate from nor prior to them happening.
Please show where in the OT that spiritual life or union is predicated upon the Spirit of God indwelling you eternally? You using a logical fallicy based upon entirely upon your perception of what 'should' be and not what scripture has stated - at least thus far as you have provided no evidence to the contrary.
You are giving me reasoning why it could be but nothing scripturally that states permenant 'indwelling' has always equated with spiritual union.
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1) When God seals us in Christ with the Spirit of Promise, the Spirit of Adoption, we are indwelt forever.
2) Next we get the feigned ignorance ploy. Scripture teaches we come to faith before we are made alive, regenerated, born anew, for we are saved through faith. Thus just as when we enter a room through a door, we pass through the door before we enter the room, and we gain access to the grace through faith in Christ. So simple even a child can understand it.
3) Lets take a look at Galatians 3:17 and see if it says Abraham was in Christ. No it does not. Some texts do indeed read "by God in Christ." However the insertion of "in Christ" appears to be a copyist gloss, an addition to the actual text. Calvinism depends on mistaken translations again and again to support its mistaken doctrine.
Here is the verse, modified from the NET to add the apparent copyist insertion: 17 What I am saying is this: The law that came four hundred thirty years later does not cancel a covenant previously ratified by God [eis Christ], so as to invalidate the promise. First note the inserted word is not "en" meaning on the inside, but rather the motion toward Christ. So what Paul could be saving (if part of the inspired text) is God established the Law to lead us to Christ. So even if the controversial phrase is the correct text, it does not say or suggest Abraham was in Christ. LOL yet again.
4) Did I say there was no salvation before people were set apart in Christ? Nope. I said they had to wait, in Abraham's bosom, for they had gained approval through faith. Ultimately the OT Saints were taken to heaven "in Christ" after Christ died on the cross. John 14:6 supports this view, the OT Saints did not come to the Father, i.e. enter heaven, the abode of the Father, but had to wait in Abraham's bosom.
5) Did the OT Saints gain approval through faith? Yes, Hebrews 11:1-2. All these died in faith without receiving the promises including a better country, that is heaven. Folks, it is all in Hebrews chapter 11, just read it, especially verses 2, 13, and 39-40.
6) Next we get the Calvinist falsehood that presalvation faith is a fruit of the Spirit. No, faithfulness is a fruit of the Spirit after being indwelt. Reread Ephesians 1:13 which clearly teaches we had presalvation faith "having believed" before we were sealed in Christ.
7) Lastly the Calvinist claims Romans 3:24-26 says the OT Saints were made perfect, righteous, holy and blameless before Christ died. Pure unadulterated twaddle. The OT saints gained approval through faith and were set apart in Abraham's bosom until Christ died. Then, together with the New Covenant saints, they were justified by His blood, made perfect and taken to heaven. Just read Hebrews 11 folks, it will teach you how the OT saints were saved by grace through faith with a pit stop in Abraham's bosom. -
Opps, posted in wrong thread.
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Acts 4:12 also tells us that it is only by Christ's name that men may be saved ("under heaven", ESV). If the OT saints didn't know Christ's name (Pr. 30:4), they couldn't be saved until the name was given among men (Luke 2:21). Christ evidently preached His name to those BC saints dwelling in Hades when He was down there (Acts 2:25, 27; 1 Pet. 3:19; 4:6), in order for them to be led into heaven (Eph. 4:8; Hos. 6:2; Mt. 27:52-53), and be saved (Acts 4:12). -
Galatians 3 ESV
16Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.
What Paul is saying in Galatians 3:16-17 is that the Abrahamic covenant had been confirmed in Christ. Christ was the promised seed that the OT saints had been waiting for for so long (Heb. 11:39, ESV):
"And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised".
This is why Eve was so excited when she had "gotten a man from the LORD" (Gen. 4:1, KJV): She thought Cain might have been the promised seed to deliver them from their transgression and overcome Satan (Gen. 3:15).
"I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he [Christ] shall bruise your [Satan's] head, and you shall bruise his heel" (Gen. 3:15, ESV, bold emphasis mine).
Abraham also, was promised this same seed. God revealed that, not only would this seed overcome Satan, as had been afore promised, but this seed would be the inheritor of the land of Canaan, and heaven.
Galatians 3:16 ESV
Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.
Gen. 22:17a ESV
I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven [the Church, cf. Heb 2:5-6; 3:1] and as the sand that is on the seashore [the Jews, Jer. 3:18; Ezek. 36:27-28].
Gen. 26:4a ESV
I will multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and will give to your offspring all these lands.
Ephesians 1:10 KJV
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him
What Paul is saying in Galatians 3:17, is that the Abrahamic covenant has been confirmed by Christ, and He is indeed the promised seed of that covenant. Since this covenant has been confirmed, something else introduced 430 years later cannot annul that covenant. Since the Christian is a part of that Abrahamic covenant (being "in Christ", the guarantor), and not a part of the Mosaic covenant that has been done away (Jer. 31:31-32; Heb. 8:13), the Christian does not have to observe the obsolete Mosaic covenant (which is the theme of the Galatian epistle).
The "inheritance" that is spoken of in verse 18 (of Galatians 3), is the heavenly inheritance for the Church, which is who Paul is writing to.
Gen. 15:5 ESV
And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring [Christ] be.” -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Van denies any where regenerated as well and you would be hard pressed to provide as many scriptures as I have to prove regeneration did occur in the Old Testament.
Every single solitary scripture you can cite that demonstrates the Spirit left someone IS NEVER IN REGARD TO SALVATION but always in regard to special service, power or a function but yet on the basis of this kind of flimsy evidence you base your presumptions.
I predicted this would be your response because you have already made up your mind in spite of the fact your offer not one scripture that demonstrates the Spirit left any of these men. The preposition "en" in the N.T. is translated both "in" and "with" and it is the decisio of the translator. The same is true in the Old Testament so your argument about "with" is worthless.
There is no sense in continuing this discussion. You cannot deny the logic of my position and you cannot deny that "in" does refer to indwelling in the New Testament Scriptures and therefore may equally apply in the OT but you simply choose not to accept that.
Thanks for the dialogue. Perhaps we will meet again on another subject. -
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Now. Let us go back the text from which I left you previously regarding those whom the Spirit of God left. Now, let us consider what the text is stating. Is it what some reformed views have deduced so as to keep with their theology, that the Spirit leaving is REALLY just the Spirit not empowering them?
Not unless we spiritualize the text without it calling or necessitating such an thing.
So, when scripture declares the Spirit of God 'departed' does it really mean what it says? Answer: Yes. The essense word means to leave, depart, be removed. (either away from, or toward )
This is it's normal and consistant rendering of the word throughout the OT. Thus the Spirit of God had to be 'with' him, in order to leave, depart, be removed from him. There is no other contextual way this can be addressed or viewed. This has nothing to do with empowering but the where the Spirit was God was in relation to Saul, or Sampson or othes for that matter. (Judges 16:20 - he did not know that the Lord had departed from him). Not ceased to empower him, but the context of the text establishes the Lord was no longer 'with' him. In fact, with Saul, the same word and reference use of the Spirit departing from him is used of the evil spirit departing from him as David played his harp. Are we to postulate that the evil spirit stopped 'empowering him'??
Another position that is taken by many reformed is that Saul was never regenerate, however this also provides an elephant in the room for them. If he was never regenerate, then you have the Holy Spirit indwelling and empowering a non-believer in which he prophesied, lead God's people, etc...
Here is John Hendryx from Monergism on (Regeneration in the Old Testament), on whom I agree with:
The only thing flimsy thus far in the conversation is your understanding of issue in question. You give nothing to validate anything but your own conjecture. I on the other hand have given you scripture, it's contextual understanding, and you.. well, nothing.
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