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Featured Spiritual understanding - part 9

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Covenanter, Jul 1, 2017.

  1. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    Where do we go from here? The most prolific poster on parts 7 & 8 posted 1-liners that did not contribute to understanding. We did reply to a number of these in the hope that he & others would read carefully & contribute positively.

    However his approach was:
    One contributor posted a query that suggested the spiritual significance of baptism, & I posted a hymn I wrote last year. Its in the Music Ministry section but I post it here for discussion purposes:


    Repent and be baptised
    and trust the name of Jesus.
    The Gospel call comes clear,
    He loves & saves and frees us.
    Believe with all your heart
    He is the Son of God;
    your sins are washed away,
    cleansed by his precious blood.

    The Spirit shows our sin
    as guilty cov'nant breakers;
    we must be born again,
    He'll cleanse, renew, remake us.
    Redeemed & saved by grace;
    buried & dead to sin;
    and raised to life in Christ;
    we live new lives in him.

    The Father calls us his;
    his children by adoption.
    The water speaks of blood -
    the price of our redemption.
    The children of his love;
    joint heirs with Christ, God's Son
    one family in Christ;
    with all his people one.

    Reborn, renewed, restored;
    eternal life before us.
    Christ walks with us each day
    till he to glory calls us.
    Then we shall see his face;
    be free from all our sin;
    this Paradise is ours -
    repent and come to him.

    Copyright - Ian Day
    Tune – “Nun danket” “Now thank we all our God,”​

    Are we waiting for the coming of the Lord for our full relationship with Christ, or should it be our present experience?
     
  2. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Both... Brother Glen:)

    I Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
     
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  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    "Covenanter

    We can just stay at it. Dispensationalists cannot contribute as their theology does not have room for these ideas.

    No they did not as they were mostly off topic.

    .
    Kyred has asked him dozens of times to work on it, but to no avail.
    ”​

    It has already began but we also look forward to being face to face.
    28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
     
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  4. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    Are we waiting for the coming of the Lord for our full relationship with Christ, or should it be our present experience?

    To what extent is our present lack of experience the result of defective theology, resulting in low expectations?

    Jesus said:
    Mat. 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen

    John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
    ......
    15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

    Do we just get on with living when our Saviour has so much more LIFE for us?
    John 10:10 ...... I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.
    ......
    27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

    We know all will be wonderful in the resurrection & NH&NE, but I suggest we are missing such a lot. More than being "saved" we already have begun eternal life.
     
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  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Part of what causes such division might not be hermeneutic based difference.
    In most churches our presentation of the gospel might not be biblical at all.
    We see that in the endless evangelism threads with an appeal to shallow methodology.
    The good news in the NT. ....was the prophesied Kingdom of all the prophets was here in the person of the King.
    Peter's first good news sermon was Joel2,psalm 16,2sam5,and psalm 110...
    No Romans road, no four spiritual flaws, no repeat after me.....just Kingdom preaching urging sinners to repent and believe.
     
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  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    People like to procrastinate.Telling them that the actual Kingdom is future allows many to avoid focusing on the labor in the vineyard to which we are called.
     
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  7. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    That is the failing of so many pilgrims... I like the way Bunyan illustrates it... We are pilgrims on a journey to the city whose builder and maker is God... So many times in our journey we meet with other pilgrims who will either in their conversations will drag us down into the valley... Their are others who in our conversations with them will take us to the peaks of the mountains... And so many others in between in the character of how they see and understand Jesus Christ the Son Of the Most High God and our Savior... But all the pilgrims are headed to the same city... There is a secular song I heard and it make a lot of sense, by Bob Dylan... Gotta Serve Somebody... If you are not in the Kingdom right now serving Jesus Christ and waiting for a Kingdom to come that is the culmination and completion of the one Jesus set up... Who are you serving?... That is the question that should be addressed to the futurist... There is a song I led in church which you will like which is titled Here In The Vineyard... I will just post the first two stanzas... Brother Glen:)

    Here in the vineyard of my Lord, I love to live and labor
    And be obedient to my God, until my dying hour.
     
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  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Nice solid post. A correct view of eschatology leads to such service;
    67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

    68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

    69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

    70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

    71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

    72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

    73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

    74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

    75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.


    76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;

    77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

    78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,

    79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.
     
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  9. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    Reading Isaiah 62 this morning, I was struck by the wonder of the promises of our God for us in Christ.

    These aren't yet future promises for Israel in a supposed millennium, nor just for the NH&NE. They are ours in Christ.

    We are living as those who have been bewitched. Still in Romans 7 when we should be in Romans 8.
     
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    When were all things put under Christ though, as isis still chopping off heads!
     
  11. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    And just what does Romans 8 tell us, that we have in Christ, pertaining to Isa 62?

    The Spirit of adoption. The very Spirit that sets us apart, sanctify's for, the hope. Hope??? What does Eph 1 tell us of this Spirit?
    The earnest of, until? When does, until, become the reality? 2 Cor 5, the earnest of the Spirit?

    I have a question. Does 2 Cor 5:5 relative to 2 Cor 4 thru 5:4 and really on through chapter 5, imply and or state, something was wrought in Christ that we also, shall obtain and we have been given the Spirit which gives us confidence of that taking place?

    Is that the, mansion, the dwelling place spoken of in John 14?

    Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:Heb 10:5

    What body was prepared for him? Is it the selfsame thing wrought for us?

    Why do we, "groan within ourselves"?
     
  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    A friend sent me a link....part of it said-
     
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  13. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Here is the part you have correct.

    For us in Christ.

    Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Heb 1:2
    And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.Romans 8:17

    Christ, the heir, has inherited we the joint heirs are just that, currently we are just heirs and not yet inheritors.

    That is inclusive of the kingdom of God.

    For us heirs, in Christ.the inheritor.
     
  14. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

    12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

    13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

    14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

    15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

    16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.

    17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.

    18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.

    19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.

    20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:

    21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.

    22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:

    23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?

    24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.

    25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)

    26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.

    27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

    28 And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem.

    In this parable in Luke 19...spoken just before the truimphal entry we are told why Jesus spoke this parable.
    In light of this and what happens as he ascends to Jerusalem,what application do you see in the wording of verse 13?

    13 and having called ten servants of his own, he gave to them ten pounds, and said unto them,

    Do business -- till I come;

    What Business would that be?
     
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  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    JcRyle offers this;
    As they heard these things, he proceeded to tell a parable, because he was near to Jerusalem, and because they supposed that the kingdom of God was to appear immediately. He said therefore, “A nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and then return. Calling ten of his servants, he gave them ten minas, and said to them, ‘Engage in business until I come.’ But his citizens hated him and sent a delegation after him, saying, ‘We do not want this man to reign over us.’

    The occasion of our Lord speaking the parable before us, is clear and plain. It was intended to correct the false expectations of the disciples on the subject of Christ's kingdom. It was a prophetical sketch of things present and things to come, which ought to raise solemn thoughts in the minds of all professing Christians.

    We see, for one thing, in this parable, the present position of our Lord Jesus Christ. He is compared to "a certain nobleman, who went into a far country, to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return."

    RYLE see's it as yet future;

    When the Lord Jesus left the world, He ascended up into heaven as a conqueror, leading captivity captive. He is there sitting at the right hand of God, doing the work of a High Priest for His believing people, and ever making intercession for them. But He will not sit there always. He will come forth from the holy of holies to bless His people. He will come again with power and glory to put down every enemy under His feet, and to set up His universal kingdom on earth. At present "we see not all things put under Him." The devil is the "prince of this world." (Heb. 2:8; John 14:30.) But the present state of things shall be changed one day. When Christ returns, the kingdoms of the world shall become His.


    But then he gives a correct application to the church anyway.....

    Let these things sink down into our minds. In all our thoughts about Christ, let us never forget His second advent. It is well to know that He lived for us, and died for us, and rose again for us, and intercedes for us. But it is also well to know that He is soon coming again.

    We see, for another thing, in this parable, the present position of all professing Christians. Our Lord compares them to servants who have been left in charge of money by an absent master, with strict directions to use that money well. They are to "occupy until He comes."

    The countless privileges which Christians enjoy, compared to the heathen, are "pounds" given to them by Christ, for which they must one day give account. We shall not stand side by side in the judgment day with the African and Chinese, who never heard of the Bible, the Trinity, and the crucifixion. The most of us, it may be feared, have little idea of the extent of our responsibility. To whomsoever much is given, of them much will be required.

    Are we "occupying?" Are we living like men who know to whom they are indebted, and to whom they must one day give account? This is the only life which is worthy of a reasonable being. The best answer we can give to those who invite us to plunge into worldliness and frivolity, is the Master's commandment which is before us. Let us tell them that we cannot consent, because we look for the coming of the Lord. We would gladly be found "occupying" when He comes.

    We see, for another thing, in this parable, the certain reckoning which awaits all professing Christians. We are told that when the master returned, he "commanded his servants to be called, that he might know how much every man had gained."
     
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  16. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    Have to put this here from another forum -
    In Acts 1 Jesus has spent 40 days teaching about the kingdom of God. He'd clearly omitted something so the disciples asked about the kingdom being restored to Israel. Read Jesus' reply - if it is not for the disciples to know, it's not for us either. Get on with being witnesses - to the uttermost part of the world - or at least to our part!

    Acts 3 - no mention of the kingdom until Acts 8 where Philip is preaching to the Samaritans about the kingdom of God. Verses 19-21 are possibly confusing suggesting the Lord will send Jesus if they repent; but Peter adds -
    “whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

    Many thousands did indeed repent & experienced Jesus & the refreshing of the Holy Spirit. Nothing about the kingdom of Israel - it's the kingdom of God!

    If it had been God's intention that Jesus should claim an earthly kingdom of Israel, then he could have done it with the Jews who did repent & believe - supported by legions of angels.

    No - there is no teaching concerning a future kingdom for the nation of Israel. I suggest you continue reading Acts 3, taking careful note of verses 22-23 & then to the end of the chapter.
     
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  17. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    I'll return & answer posts on this thread shortly - the internet for our whole district has been malfunctioning.
     
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  18. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    I'm struggling with my thoughts as I write.

    Our progression as believers is -
    repentance;
    regeneration by the Holy Spirit;
    Christian life of prayer, fellowship, witness, spiritual warfare, etc, suffering & death;
    glory in heaven;
    resurrection to the eternal blessedness of the NH&NE. ​

    My impression (& I was converted & baptised 60 years ago) is that our 'normal experience as Christians falls short of what Scripture promises -
    Isaiah 62:5 And as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride,
    So shall your God rejoice over you.

    Malachi 3:16 Then those who feared the Lord spoke to one another,And the Lord listened and heard them;
    So a book of remembrance was written before Him
    For those who fear the Lord, And who meditate on His name.
    17 “They shall be Mine,” says the Lord of hosts,
    “On the day that I make them My jewels....


    Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
    8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
    So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

    I feel we are missing something wonderful. I know we are still living in the world, surrounded by godless influences, & material needs & functions. We just get on with routine Christian living as in Romans 7. I know plenty of commentators apply Romans 7 to the normal Christian life - but are they right?

    David Guzik is helpful.

    Is the Christian hope just a hope for the future, of heaven & the resurrection, or is it more? Surely it is a living, certain hope, centred on Christ, which both motivates us & gives us present delight in our relationship with our Saviour.

    We are living in the body, surrounded by temptation & sinners, struggling with sin & particularly the sins of omission. Do we focus too much of present struggles & future hope, rather than our present relationship of faith, hope & love in our Saviour?

    I think you are questioning our present status as heirs, so that we receive our inheritance at death. Paul in Galatians explains their misunderstanding. Until they are of age, children are under governors & do not possess their inheritance. Likewise before conversion we recognise our sinful status under the Law, & the tendency after conversion is to continue to live under the Law.

    The great message of Galatians is that as born again believers in Christ, we ARE children of God of faith in Jesus. We are NOT under the Law.
    Galatians 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

    We are living the New Covenant:
    Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

    Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit
     
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  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Israel still has that promised Kingdom yet to come per Jesus, just not part of the plan in this Age!
    And the term restoring all things would refer toall that God had promised israel, as paul also mentions how much greater will it be when the Jews return to Jesus and get saved on the national level!
     
  20. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    True! I've thought that myself! Lil' ol' me.
     
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