Tom Butler, thanks for the response to my question about blessing/curses. I enjoyed reading it. It seems like you've spent some time on this issue in conversations past.
Still tithing?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Ivon Denosovich, Sep 10, 2007.
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TCGreek, I had no idea tithes funded national security back in ye olden daise. Were did you find that MacArthur factoid?
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When Paul said to give as God has prospered, it seems to me that he was simply saying, the more God blesses you financially, the more you should give. That sounds like proportionate giving to me--that is, some percentage.
In the absence of a specific percentage from Paul and the other NT writers, the only place we can look for guidance is in the OT, and to Jesus endorsement of the tithe. If it is not meant for NT believers, it does help to take the arbitrariness out of our giving habits. -
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TCGreek, I interpreted this, "Tithes were not primarily gifts to God, but taxes for funding the national budget in Israel," as some sort of military undertaking. But that could have been just me.
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2. BTW, how the tithe was used makes for a good study. -
"All giving apart from that required to run the government was purely voluntary (cf. Exodus 25:2; 1 Chronicles 29:9). Each person gave whatever was in his heart to give; no percentage or amount was specified" (emphasis mine). -
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Aaron said:I'm not sure about this statement. As I recall, Jethro advised Moses to appoint civil rulers out of all the tribes to judge the people. There were rulers of tens, fifties, hundreds and thousands. Were all these funded by the tithe?Click to expand...
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TCGreek said:If that had to be the case, then they would have been.Click to expand...
For what purpose was tithing in the Israel community?Click to expand...
As I recall, the first centuries of Israel's occupation of Canaan was called the period of the Judges. I don't know if there were a tax, but the Judges were not Levites. Samuel, the last and most reknowned Judge was of the tribe of Ephraim. When Israel rejected their theocracy and asked for a king, Samuel warned them that their King would impose a 10% tax upon their wealth. But this wasn't the tithe (1 Sam. 8:15-18). Above that he would take the best of their properties for his house and the best of their children for his armies and servants. The first king was of the tribe of Benjamin, and the second of Judah. Would it have been lawful for them to be maintained with the tithe?
I see no connection between the tithe and the civil government of Israel. -
Aaron said:That's begging the question. The tithe was used for the maintenance of the Levites, but the rulers of tens, fifties, hundreds and thousands were appointed from among all the tribes. Would it have been lawful to use the tithe for rulers of Judah or Gad?Click to expand...
Primarily the worship of Jehovah. Secondly, the maintenance of the Tabernacle and the priesthood. To say, as MacArthur does, that since Israel was a theocracy, the Levites served as the civil government is a non sequitur. I'm no O.T. expert, but I've read every word of the O.T. multiple times, and I never came away with the idea that the Levites served as the civil government.Click to expand...
As I recall, the first centuries of Israel's occupation of Canaan was called the period of the Judges. I don't know if there were a tax, but the Judges were not Levites. Samuel, the last and most reknowned Judge was of the tribe of Ephraim. When Israel rejected their theocracy and asked for a king, Samuel warned them that their King would impose a 10% tax upon their wealth. But this wasn't the tithe (1 Sam. 8:15-18). Above that he would take the best of their properties for his house and the best of their children for his armies and servants. The first king was of the tribe of Benjamin, and the second of Judah. Would it have been lawful for them to be maintained with the tithe?
I see no connection between the tithe and the civil government of Israel.Click to expand... -
I really find this whole thread rather disheartening. It is amazing how we will go to any length to try and convince ourselves that what we want to do is the right thing to do.
You can argue whether giving is obligatory or optional, but if it is not from the heart and willfully contributed, it may as well not be given at all.
If we have to ask if we are doing the right thing by not giving or tithing, then I think we are just trying to put some salve on our own consciences. What is the Holy Spirit leading you to do? That's what is important.
Can we truly be a living sacrifice if we are worried about whether or not we can withhold our earnings (or anything) from God? We have to lay our all on the alter and be willing to say "God, it is ALL yours! Use it, Use me in any way you see fit!"
Churches spend more time dwelling on these "mute" issues today than carrying out the Great Commission. Christ taught us to be humble servants and care more about the needs of others than ourselves, yet we spend so much time doing the opposite.
I don't really mean to be so critical, but there is a world out there that needs to hear the Gospel, and issues like this take the church's focus away from that.
God Bless,
carpenter -
Carpenter said:What is the Holy Spirit leading you to do?Click to expand...
We have to lay our all on the alter and be willing to say "God, it is ALL yours! Use it, Use me in any way you see fit!"Click to expand... -
My new church home which I plan on giving to:
http://www.questcommunity.com/ -
Ivon Denosovich said:(after quoting Carpenter, "We have to lay our all on the alter and be willing to say "God, it is ALL yours! Use it, Use me in any way you see fit!"
I find your melodrama to border on dishonesty. Nothing personal.Click to expand...
I did not see it that way at all! To suggest that someone is walking the line of honesty vss dishonest IS PERSONAL. To say that they were melodramatic is not.
In any case, Tithing was OT for Israel, not commanded to post-cross believers. None-the-less, ALL THAT WE HAVE BELONGS TO GOD, whether or not we acknowledge it! It is sad that some use the truth that tithing is not commanded for believers as an excuse not to give much. Some do.
I took Carpenter's comments as a call to examine our hearts to recognize that ALL WE HAVE is a gift from God, all the way down to each successive breath that we draw in and breathe out. Our giving, Time, Talents, and Treasure -- should reflect a recognition of this truth. -
You could be right rjprince. But this looked rather condescending:
"I really find this whole thread rather disheartening. It is amazing how we will go to any length to try and convince ourselves that what we want to do is the right thing to do."
But you could be right. That's why I said border. Still nothing personal. -
Ivon Denosovich said:You could be right rjprince.Click to expand...
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Aahhh... you & me both friend, rjprince. You and me both.
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