You just answered your own question for the different threads on the same subject. We need to go by scripture and not what we think, or what man tells us, for we know man creates confusion. I would have gladly welcomed the blessing from Isaac. "Therefore God give thee of the dew of heaven, and the fatness of the earth, and plenty of corn and wine", Genesis 27:28. Can we find a Bible in which a Translator will dare change the Word of God, and call "Wine" grape juice?
And from the "corn" for food they found a by-product, that being "Corn whiskey". Deuteronomy tells us God gave His OK for the people to drink both "wine that will make drunk, as well as strong drink that will make drunk. One cannot get drunk on grape juice. That doesn't mean if we wish to have a drink of either one that we have to get drunk. We don't for we know we are not to become drunkards. People can drink, or not drink, and it makes no difference to me if a Christian does or doesn't. It is their business, but those that see it as sin should not continue to try and justify by what ever means necessary, forcing them to judge the brothers and sisters that do drink.
Is what God furnishes bad or good? I see He furnishes good but some make it bad. We don't have to accept every "gift" God gives to us, and wine is a gift to man to make mans heart glad. At least that is what my Bible says.I really doubt that is what Timothy told Paul. Until people believe His Word, the debate will go on.
Strong Drink (Deut. 14:26)
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Hawaiiski, Mar 13, 2007.
Page 5 of 8
-
-
-
From my studies God only accepted certain sacrifices. If the priest offered a sacrifice that was unclean, or the priest himself was unclean, the sacrifice was unaccepted. -
To the ones comparing alcoholism to sports obsession, that is up there with the most ludicrious statements in the history of this board.
Here is my reference. Romans 12:1. My body and yours is the temple of the Living God. How about being a sunday school teacher, deacon, dad, husband, witness in the work place, are those enough references for all you moderate drinkers. -
For those who try to justify drinking by showing the drink offering given to the priest, if you do a study in the Book of Numbers you will find that the drink offering was not drank by the priests, but rather it was poured out by the priest before the Lord as a sweet savour to the Lord.
-
These were the things that were normally forbidden:
-
-
Food is not sin. Overeating is sin.
Novacane (for surgery) is not sin. Abuse and getting high is sin.
Coffee is not sin. Addiction to the drug that is caffeine is sin.
Sex is not sin. Fornication and adultery are sin.
Overuse and abuse of anything is sin. Some people like to have their pet peeves about some things while being careless about others. Moderation in everything is important. It is true that virtually no one really needs alcohol. I feel that it is medicinal (as Scripture shows) and should be treated with respect as such. Medicine can easily be abused if not taken properly.
-
What does it matter the object of our desire (lust) or to what we are in bondage?
HankD -
Here is a good article on the subject:
http://sbcpastor.blogspot.com/2006/07/paige-patterson-on-alcoholic-beverages.html -
Anyone that argues for abstinence has to do so out of silence, or has to change the meaning of Scripture to support their notions, as this person did. Jesus made the "best wine". The Lord of Hosts serves the "best wine" (Is. 25:6). Let Scripture interpret Scripture...the "best" is the well aged, ALCOHOLIC wine. -
Anyone who argues for moderation has to change the meaning of Scripture to support their notions
The Greek word for 'sober' in 4 verses in the Word of God is the word 'nepho' which means 'to abstain from alcohol.
nhjw nepho nay'-fo
of uncertain affinity: to abstain from wine (keep sober), i.e. (figuratively) be discreet:--be sober, watch.
Abstinence is clearly taught in the 4 verses that use this Greek word, 'nepho'.
1 Thessalonians 5:6
1 Thessalonians 5:8
1 Peter 1:13
1 Peter 5:8
Alcohol is forbidden in the life of Christians according to these verses alone out of the New Testament. -
An example of such an expression is Gen 4:1 "And Adam knew3045 Eve his wife." The denotative definition of the word "know" means "to ascertain a fact, or to be acquainted with something." The Hebrew word means exactly this. However, from context, used as a euphemism or figure of speech, a connotative definition of the word means "to engage in intercourse" (i.e. to really get to know someone).
This passage expresses nothing about alcohol. The context clearly shows the use of the word in its purest denotation.
11Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for a helmet, the hope of salvation.
As this verse follows from the previous verses, its context is that of being awake and ready "of the day." Being sober here is a state or condition; not implying an extremity in perpetuity.
Once again, the context does not reference alcohol in the least. The word is used in its purest denotation and expresses a watchful mind.
Once again, the context does not reference alcohol in the least. The word is used in its purest denotation and expresses a watchful mind in preparedness for an attacker.
If this is all the "proof" you have, then you are struggling. You also have to assume based on your preconceived notions that all clear references to the prescription of wine are non-alcoholic. Your alleged "proof" and assumption begs the question and is based on mere circular argumentation.
Please address my posts dealing with Deuteronomy 12 and 14. Did God allow (at least at certain times) the people of Israel to consume alcoholic beverages? -
It is true God said 'Go buy whatever your soul lusteth after' in Deuteronomy 14, but if we read further in the Word of God, we find that those who truly wanted to have a relationship with God did not drink the wine or strong drink.
These were the same people God told to buy strong drink in Chapter 14 and yet He affirms that they did not drink it. Why did they not drink wine or strong drink? because they knew as Solomon affirmed later on that wine and strong drink perverts the judgment. They would not be qualified to know God's will for their lives. -
Hey, if all you theological geniuses feel lead to drink, then by all means drink. Not only is His Blood Spoke My Name correct, one can make an excellent case for abstaining without ever opening Scripture. Its called life experience and common sense.
I do have one question, is it best to drink in moderation before, during or after witnessing? Before or after the kids finish their homework? -
saturneptune said:Hey, if all you theological geniuses feel lead to drink, then by all means drink.Click to expand...
saturneptune said:Not only is His Blood Spoke My Name correct,Click to expand...
saturneptune said:one can make an excellent case for abstaining without ever opening Scripture. Its called life experience and common sense.Click to expand...
saturneptune said:I do have one question, is it best to drink in moderation before, during or after witnessing? Before or after the kids finish their homework?Click to expand...
I understand and am in perfect harmony with total abstinence. I am, however, against making Scripture say what it doesn't say. -
His Blood Spoke My Name said:It is true God said 'Go buy whatever your soul lusteth after' in Deuteronomy 14, but if we read further in the Word of God, we find that those who truly wanted to have a relationship with God did not drink the wine or strong drink.
Deu 29:6 Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the LORD your God.Click to expand...Click to expand...
Deu 29:5-6 shows God's provision for the nation of Israel while they were in the wilderness:
Deu 29:5 And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot.
Deu 29:6 Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the LORD your God.Click to expand... -
Let's see how the four verse line up when using abstain instead of sober in light of Solomon's revealing to his reader that alcohol causes one to forget the law and perverts judgment
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and abstain from drinking wine.
Yep, works there. if the person abstains from drinking, he is able to watch for the enemy without his judgment being perverted.
11Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, abstain from drinking alcohol, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for a helmet, the hope of salvation.
I noticed you contrasted the day and night in verses 7 and 8, but did not contrast the drunkenence and soberness... any particular reason? At any rate, abstain fits just perfect in light of the contrast of drunkenness in verse 7. Day is exact opposite of night, sober is exact opposite of drunken.
1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, abstain from drinking alcohol, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
Abstain from alcohol if one continues in the verses. Verse 13 is not the end of the thought as it ends with a semicolon, not a period. The thought actually carries on through verse 16. In light of Peter commanding one to 'gird up the loins of one's mind' we have a picture of a soldier who should have his mind clear for quick decisions. If his mind is clouded with alcohol, he cannot be an effective soldier. That is why Peter continues with
1 Peter 1:14 (KJV) As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
1 Peter 1:15 (KJV) But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1 Peter 1:16 (KJV) Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
Don't cling to that which your flesh lusts for, but be holy in all your walk. A child of God cannot be holy with alcohol on his or her breath.
Abstain from alcohol works perfectly in verse 13 in light of the verses that follow.
The last verse
1 Peter 5:8 (KJV) Abstain from alcohol, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
continues
1 Peter 5:9 (KJV) Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
How can one effectively resist the devil with that which deceives and perverts the judgment by clouding the mind?
The phrase 'abstain from alcohol' fits perfectly with any of the four verses in light of Solomon's Wisdom and good common sense. -
His Blood Spoke My Name said:Let's see how the four verse line up when using abstain instead of sober in light of Solomon's revealing to his reader that alcohol causes one to forget the law and perverts judgmentClick to expand...
His Blood Spoke My Name said:1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and abstain from drinking wine.
Yep, works there. if the person abstains from drinking, he is able to watch for the enemy without his judgment being perverted.Click to expand...
His Blood Spoke My Name said:11Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, abstain from drinking alcohol, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for a helmet, the hope of salvation.
I noticed you contrasted the day and night in verses 7 and 8, but did not contrast the drunkenence and soberness... any particular reason? At any rate, abstain fits just perfect in light of the contrast of drunkenness in verse 7. Day is exact opposite of night, sober is exact opposite of drunken.Click to expand...
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
[through the coordinating conjunction but, "watch and be sober" (alert) is the opposite of "sleep"]
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
[through the coordinating conjunction and "sleep" and "drunken" are parallelisms and equal; both are implied as things that occur at night; night is the focus, which is contrasted with day through the coordinating conjunction but in the next verse]
1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for a helmet, the hope of salvation.
[Sleep and drunkenness are both things listed as occurring at night; both are activities in which one would not be sober (alert) at the given time]Click to expand...
Also, consuming any amount of alcohol does not result in drunkenness.
His Blood Spoke My Name said:1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, abstain from drinking alcohol, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
Abstain from alcohol if one continues in the verses. Verse 13 is not the end of the thought as it ends with a semicolon, not a period. The thought actually carries on through verse 16. In light of Peter commanding one to 'gird up the loins of one's mind' we have a picture of a soldier who should have his mind clear for quick decisions. If his mind is clouded with alcohol, he cannot be an effective soldier. That is why Peter continues with
1 Peter 1:14 (KJV) As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
1 Peter 1:15 (KJV) But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1 Peter 1:16 (KJV) Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.Click to expand...
His Blood Spoke My Name said:Don't cling to that which your flesh lusts for, but be holy in all your walk. A child of God cannot be holy with alcohol on his or her breath.Click to expand...
His Blood Spoke My Name said:Abstain from alcohol works perfectly in verse 13 in light of the verses that follow.
The last verse
1 Peter 5:8 (KJV) Abstain from alcohol, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
continues
1 Peter 5:9 (KJV) Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
How can one effectively resist the devil with that which deceives and perverts the judgment by clouding the mind?Click to expand...
1. It does not mention drunkenness.
2. Even if it did, drunkenness does not equal all and any alcohol consumption; only that of being under its power.
You are not proving your original premise that Scripture forbids any and all alcohol consumption by appealing to the consequences of a mind altered by drunkenness, and your "proof" texts do not even adequately provide a case in context with reference to drunkenness. You are sincerely grasping at straws.
His Blood Spoke My Name said:The phrase 'abstain from alcohol' fits perfectly with any of the four verses in light of Solomon's Wisdom and good common sense.Click to expand...
Your "common sense" argument is about the only one that stands. :)
Page 5 of 8