Man shows partiality, he looks upon others on the basis of what he may perceive to be meritorious, or in a baser sense the station of a person in life. James warns against this error in his letter [Chapter 2]
God does not reveal why He chose some to Salvation in Jesus Christ and not others. But one thing is certain. He did not do it on the basis of any foreseen merit in man.
Summarizing the Mistakes of Calvinism
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Jan 28, 2012.
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Now as to your statement that John 6:37 does not teach Irresistible Grace you are mistaken as usual. The verse reads: All that the Father giveth me shall come to me. Now is Jesus Christ lying? I think not. Jesus Christ is affirming that those chosen by the Father and given to him will positively come to Him. Now that is a fact. Call it Irresistible Grace or call it whatever you choose but if you deny that fact you are denying the spoken Word of Jesus Christ.
Now Winman you state:
As for John 6:64, 65.
Verse 64 has reference to the betrayal by Judas. Verse 65 affirms exactly what verse 6:37 states and what I have stated: And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. For goodness sake, Winman, read the verse. No one can come to Jesus Christ unless it were given to the person by God. How is it given to the person? By election and regeneration.
The passage states: No man can come to me, except the Father. . However, to further make the point that this passage shows limited atonement consider the verse in total. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
First: No man can come unless the Father draws him. Verse 37 states the father gives the person to Jesus Christ. So the person is drewn to Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ will raise that person up on the last day. We must conclude that person, and all who are drawn to Jesus Christ by the Father, is saved.
Second: Are all people saved? The answer must be NO. Therefore, all people are not drawn to Jesus Christ and atonement is limited!
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The only answer i can give is that the "many are called" refers to the "Gospel Call" not the "Effectual Call". The parable of the sower demonstrates the difference between the two! -
The only answer i can give is that the "many are called" refers to the "Gospel Call" not the "Effectual Call". The parable of the sower demonstrates the difference between the two![/QUOTE]It seems to me that from what I have read posted by some calvinists that they would claim that God called and chose the same number. If that is the case then God makes mistakes because he does not call the same number he chooses according to scripture.
I like what A.T. Robertson wrote,
For many are called, but few chosen (polloi gar eisin klêtoi oligoi de eklektoi). This crisp saying of Christ occurs in various connections. He evidently repeated many of his sayings many times as every teacher does. There is a distinction between the called (klêtoi) and the chosen (eklektoi) called out from the called.
Jesus gave the explanation of the parable of the sower. So I will have to stick with His explanation and leave it where he leaves it. I believe that the parable of the sower applies to everyone in some way. -
By the way, you're lookin' a little rough around the edges. I think it's about time for a good grooming!! :laugh: And how about a flea bath to boot? :laugh:
BTW, we used to have poodles a few years back, and they're the sweetest things! I sure do miss them. -
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Who let the DoGs out? Skan, Skan, Skan, Skan......wooo wooo hooo hooo!
From the song "Who let the dogs out........j/k with everyone. -
Brother Skan,
There is MUCH that we are in agreement with, but a thread like this had the "self-destruct" button pressed from the get-go. A thread like this would be akin to "Your mommy is stupid, fat, lazy, and stanks, and here's why." Some things are better left unsaid. I am afraid that this was one of'em. -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
The ordination of the Apostles does not negate individual election unto salvation....
10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory -
Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Jesus here says that no man can come to him unless he were drawn to Jesus by the Father, then Jesus explains how this is done. It is accomplished through the word of God. Every man who has heard, that is willingly listened to God's word and learned from from him shall come to Jesus. If you heard Moses and the prophets but did not believe it, you would not come to Jesus. This is why Jesus said in Jhn 5:46-47;
Jhn 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
Again, Jesus is saying if you do not believe the word of God, then you cannot come to him, and you cannot believe his words, for his words are the word of God also. So, if you came to Jesus, it was given you of the Father.
Acts 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
Paul heard Stephen preach, and it absolutely had an effect on him, but not for the good. He resisted the word of God and actively persecuted all those who believed in Jesus.
This is how folks act when they are convicted. They either submit to conviction and repent, or they do the opposite, they get angry and resist all the more. This is what Paul did when he heard the word of God. It is similar to Pharaoh, who continued to get more and more obstinate and angry each time he saw a miracle from God.
Totally off subject, but I was present when the world record hammerhead shark was caught at the Jax Bch Pier back in 75. I was in the water surfing when this shark was pulled out no more than 50 feet from me.
Man, when I saw "Blackie" pulling this shark out, I got out of the water quick. I have some pics of this shark I took myself.
Jhn 8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
These are the men who wanted to stone the woman caught in adultery. Note how they were convicted by Jesus's words. These men were not saved, in fact they were trying to trap Jesus. Nevertheless, they were convicted by the word of God.
Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
You might be drawn and convicted by the word of God, but until you place your trust in Jesus you do not have life. -
The New Perspective and Ephesians
This is the third installment of a series, the first two numbers being "The New Perspective on Paul" and "The New Perspective and the Development of Reformed Doctrine."
The New Perspective on Paul is generally associated with a reinterpretation of Romans and Galatians, inasmuch as these two books have been most closely associated with the Old Perspective and the traditional Protestant interpretation of justification being derived from these two epistles. However, the traditional (especially Reformed) interpretation of Ephesians 1 and 2 should also be reexamined in light of the New Perspective.
The message of the Gospel, available to anyone who believes, was a direct threat to the special status that Israel had held as the chosen people. According to the New Perspective, this opposition to the full inclusion of the Gentiles was the major issue against which Paul was arguing in Romans and Galatians. Ephesians is quite clearly about much the same issue, although not directed against Jewish opposition or Judaizers, but written to Gentile believers to assure them of their full inclusion with Jewish believers in the New Covenant. Ephesians 2:11-3:21, which forms the heart of the book, are quite explicitly about this issue: the "mystery of Christ," which is that "the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (3:4-6). However, in traditional Reformed interpretation, chapters 1 and 2 are read as though they had nothing to do with the Jew-Gentile problem, and instead read as though they are a treatise on individual election.
Who are the "you" and the "us"?
The key to understanding Ephesians 1-2 is to identify whom Paul means by “you” and by “us” and “we.” For example, when he states “he chose us . . . he predestined us” (1:4, 5), what exactly constitutes “us”? How does the context define “us”? What are the defining characteristics of the group of people to whom Paul is referring?
In the first verse of the epistle, Paul designates his readers as pistois en Christô Iēsou, "faithful [or believing] in Christ Jesus." In the rest of his epistles, Paul only addresses his readers as pistois one other time, in Colossians. This designation, then, has special significance to the readers of Ephesians. The prominent role of faith in subsequent verses highlights the fact that Paul's designation is intended to frame the self-perception of his readers.
In connection with “having been predestined” in v. 11, Paul identifies “we” in vv. 11 and 12 as “the first to hope in Christ.” In v. 13, he identifies “you” as having been “included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of salvation” and as “having believed.” He refers in v. 15 to “your faith,” in v. 19 to “us who believe,” and states in 2:10 that “you” have been saved “through faith.” Based on the above verses, one defining characteristic of both “you” and “us” throughout the passage would clearly seem to be that they are believers and have faith.
You Gentiles and We Jews
In 2:11, "you" is more explicitly identified as "you who are Gentiles by birth and called 'uncircumcised' by those who call themselves 'the circumcision' (that done in the body by the hands of men)...." It is probable that virtually all of Paul's readers were Gentiles, so this verse further defines the "you." Paul's identification of "we" as "the first to hope in Christ" in verse 13 now makes more sense: the first generation of Christians, including Paul himself, were Jewish believers; therefore where "we" is contrasted with "you," Paul is referring to Jewish believers. (When not contrasted with "you," Paul may mean either Jewish believers or Jewish and Gentile believers considered together.) This connects the early part of the epistle thematically with the central section, the main point of which is the union of Jewish and Gentile believers into one body (2:16, 3:6).
Taking this understanding back to the passages dealing with election helps to understand Paul's intent better. In 1:4-5, Paul discusses how God chose "us" and predestined "us"; here, he is writing of Jewish and Gentile believers considered together. He is including the Gentiles in the election that Israel was already understood as having. His point is that the Gentiles are not an afterthought in God's plan; they were chosen "before the creation of the world." 1:9-10 foreshadow 3:6: the "all things" that are to be brought "together under one head" are the Jewish and Gentile believers.
Verses 11-14 begin to make a distinction between "we" and "you." The "we" in verse 11 who were "predestined" are defined in verse 12 as "the first to hope in Christ"; i.e., Paul now means by "we" the first generation of believers, who were largely Jewish. Then "you also [Gentile believers] were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth.... Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal...." Paul is saying that just as we Jews who believed were chosen and predestined according to God's plan, even so you Gentile believers are also included in that same plan. The Gentiles are fully included in the plan that God had from the beginning.
At the beginning of chapter 2, Paul continues the comparison: just as "you were dead in your transgressions and sins" (2:1-2), even so "all of us also lived among them [the 'sons of disobedience'] at one time.... we were by nature objects of wrath" (2:3). The Jews, just like the Gentiles, had once been alienated from God--the same point he makes in Galatians 2:15-16, and reiterates explicitly with regard to the Gentiles in 2:12-13.
Because of the individualistic emphasis of the Old Perspective, Ephesians 1:1-2:10 has been interpreted as an exposition of individual unconditional election, total depravity, and regeneration prior to justification. Understanding the role of the Jew-Gentile issue in Ephesians leads to a different conception of Paul's message here--one that reaches out to Gentile believers and assures them that they are just as fundamentally a part of God's election and plan as Israel had been in the Old Testament. Although this understanding can still be fit into the Reformed framework, it does not require the Reformed understanding of unconditional, individual election. Gentile believers are being reassured that they are just as much "chosen" as Jewish believers had been--because God's choice is not based on whether they are Jews or Gentiles, but rather upon faith in Christ as the only necessary criterion. -
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It's not hard to figure out. :wavey: -
His post is more akin to:
a = xLooks right until the last step where he insists on dividing by zero. 2=1 is "mysterious," but must be the conclusion, because he obeyed all the rules of math to arrive at that conclusion. The Calvinists are trying to tell him that a-x is zero, and nothing can be divided by zero. The argument is as basic as arguing over whether or not 2 = 1.
a+a = a+x
2a = a+x
2a-2x = a+x-2x
2(a-x) = a+x-2x
2(a-x) = a-x
2 = 1
That's where the self-destruct button is. -
Reply to Skandelon,
However, to your point that God does not hand pick who will believe, I agree. But if you were implying that God does not hand pick who He saves by putting them individually in Christ, after crediting their faith as righteousness, I disagree. Corporate Salvation is false doctrine.
Point 2. This is close to the truth, in my opinion, but no cigar. God's predetermined plan for redemption was formulated or known before the foundation of the world, for you do not choose a Redeemer without a plan for the Redeemer to redeem. The redemption plan, according to scripture, had three features:
First, God would provide a Redeemer to provide the means of salvation for all mankind, 1 John 2:2.
Second, God would put whoever believes in His Redeemer spiritually in Christ, but God would decide who believes with their whole heart. 1 Cor. 1:30; Romans 4:4-5
Third, God would raise His Redeemer from the grave as the first born of many brethren, and would raise all those He would put into Christ spiritually during their lifetime when Christ returns, in glorified bodies.
Thus anyone spiritually placed "in Christ" is predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ and predestined to be bodily resurrected.
Point 3. As to the question of when did the temporary hardening of the Jews end, I think it ended when those individuals either died or the hardening was removed, near the the time Paul was writing Romans. Paul referred to them as the ones who drove him out of the Jewish places of worship and into the Gentile areas. Yet he also expressed hope that his subsequent work with the Gentiles would cause some Jews to repent indicates some Jews were able to repent.
However, all the passages when folks lose their ability to come to faith demonstrate Total Spiritual Inability is not a condition we are conceived in, but rather a condition some achieve during their lifetime.
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