Has nothing to do with that whatsoever. It has to do with giving up your life for Christ as He did for us. You are adding to the text, as it has nothing to do wth "making" Christ Lord. (we don't make Him do anything)
Take up his cross...
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Rubato 1, Apr 11, 2008.
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Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Your philosophy doesn't hold true with the word. Which do you serve, God or mammon? -
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John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
You also appear to believe that it is okay to call me "arrogant" (a personal attack, an attack on my character) for criticizing a position someone took (not a personal attack). Is that correct, and a fair statement of your views in this matter? -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Having said that, I think you are right in so far that "take up your cross" and "die to self" are both metaphors for complete dedication to Jesus Christ our Lord. -
Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
No different than assigning a careless attitude and or motive to others. And it wasn't about criticizing a position. It was about assigning carelessness to how they reached their position. If you are going to hand out such sharp admonitions to others I suggest you be willing to consider the samefor yourself with the same attitude you expect of others. -
You guys have me pretty confused.
A simple question:
Definition: elect=saved (at least here in my post)
According to Scripture, will ALL the elect become disciples, in that they will/must take up their crosses and follow Christ?
Please prove to me your point by Scripture. -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I stand by my statement that BaptistBeliever was being careless with the Scripture. And I stand by my statement that that I did not attack BB personally. But you attacked me personally and seem to feel that is quite all right.
As for my attitude, I said very clearly to BaptistBeliever that I meant what I said as a kindly rebuke. Now if BB is wise, he will love me for it, as the book of Proverbs says. If he loves the Word of God he will try to be more careful with how he approaches it.
Proverbs 9:8-9. "Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee. Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning." -
Now I'm sure there may be a story or two of someone surviving a crucifixion, but I would seriously doubt that it would be without intervention. If you went to the cross you were going to die.
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I never have said that. We will continue to sin but will repent and get back on the straight and narrow. You seem to believe that since Christians aren't perfect they should continue their sinful life that they lived before they were saved. The Bible doesn't support that kind of easy salvation.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Whether you do or not this is a lie that has infected the church and lead to the grave corruption.
John 15 supports the understanding BB has articulated as well. The fruit of the lost is clear and the fruit of the regenerate is clear. Both passages apply to BB's point. -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
:smilewinkgrin:
And no, I'm not wrong. Verses 15-16 of Matt. 7 says "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits." Now, for you and BB to be right, somewhere between verse 15 and 20, the place he started quoting, there has to be a switch in subjects from "false prophets" to "false disciples" or some such term. Can you find such a switch? Nope. On the contrary, v. 22 is clearly talking once again about false prophets, because what average false disciple claims to be doing mighty works in Christ's name?
Here is what I am about: taking the Word of God for what it says, no more or no less. And yes, I am of the correct belief that when Jesus talks specifically about "false prophets," we should not use His words carelessly to mean something else. Whether or not we can be fruit inspectors and tell whether or not someone is saved, this is not the passage to prove it.
You are welcome to quote from John 15 (instead of simply referencing it and making broad statements) and try to prove your point. I'd be happy to interact with you on that. (You currently have no idea what I believe about the subject, only that I don't accept Matt. 7 as referring to anything but false prophets.)
But hey, you know what, it would be even better if BaptistBeliever his (or her) own self would answer me directly. You keep answering for him (or her). I'm sure BaptistBeliever is of age and can answer me. You are starting to remind me of "Cruden the Corrector.":smilewinkgrin: -
Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
And if you want a private conversation on this with BB there is always the pm option. If you are going to post in the forums be prepared for responses from anyone.
I find it interesting and rather hypocritical of you to imply that I am intruding int a conversation between you and BB when in fact you responded to a post made by BB toward webdog. -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
If you are standing by these statements, you are ignoring the Biblical data, which once again is: concerning your first statement, the term "take up (or bear) your cross" occurs only six times, and of those three are specifically to disciples and the other three cannot be proven to be said to lost people. So it is careless of you to say "Christ always..." (emphasis mine).
And concerning your second statement, in three of the cases Christ was specifically talking to disciples, and in one statement the terms "bear your cross" and "disciple" even occur in the same verse. So Christ certainly was talking about discipleship. So it is careless of you to say, "In none of these cases (emphasis mine) was he talking about discipleship."
I simply gave Biblical data that proved you wrong. So please answer me on the Biblical data I gave instead of just calling the data "shallow and ill-considered." -
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John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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The problem with your interpretation is that Jesus throughout his ministry taught the necessity of following Him with regard to salvation. It's not an argument about one verse, it's a position on the whole of Jesus' ministry.
And when de described the Judgment in MA 25 it was very clear.
Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.
I know you'll want to call this the "Bema Seat Judgment" and claim it's all about rewards and doesn't refer to eternal salvation but I don't see THAT in the scripture.
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